Stay Away From EA Forums

I think the point here is not if what they are doing is illegal (although it should be) or not, but whether you want to support that "business mentality" they wish to adopt (seriously revoke someone right to use their purchase based on a forum post ?!) with your hard earned cash. I tend to vote with my wallet and try to support the artists and companies that publish their works. There are quite a few out there that put quality works out and respect me as a customer too. No need to give my money to EA methinks...
 
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On a basic, I bought it thus I should own it level I would agree with you. However that is not how this works in the real world nor legally. You didn't seem to get my previous post. In a nutshell you DO NOT own the software, you are, at best, leasing it, as well as any other network the software accesses (such as their corp servers).

The main thrust of your previous post, unless I read it completely wrong, had more to do with online interaction and forum usage. The linking of forum behavior to paid for product, while legal-because-the-EULA-says-so is something that I have a problem with. I understand that it's legal - I'm just pointing out that it's wrong, and should be changed. Just because someone is punished under the rules doesn't mean that the rules aren't fucked up. I wouldn't care if he was a raging homophobe and racist, I don't think that banning him from using a game in the privacy of his own home should be associated with said forum ban. It's bad business, and I hope that it gets plastered over every corner of the internet. Market dynamics: you fuck with your customer base enough, and it should bite you in the ass.
 
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Getting rid of the dicks will make the internet better. Interaction is interaction, regardless of the medium.

I'll use a somewhat silly example to illustrate. Let's say you're part of a non-competitive sports team. You get together every week and you play another non-competitive sports team (non-competitive meaning not professional, you're all just folks going and having fun and yeah you're playing to win, but you aren't a pro). At the event, one of the people is constantly using racial slurs at everyone in the match. You go to a bar afterwards with that group, that person continues to spew a stream of racial slurs at everyone. What do you do? Let the guy keep coming and ranting, pushing out any of the minorities in the group that would feel unsafe attending because he's just exercising his freedom of expression? Or tell him to GTFO because he's disruptive to everyone else who is taking part in the activity?
 
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In a nutshell you DO NOT own the software,

I'm glad that German law is different.

Yes, here you actually OWN the software !

And THIS is the reason why the U.S. based intellectual properties companies would really, really like this to be changed !

And they are slowly, but steadily succeeding : They are using the world trade agreements like GATT to push their views of how laws should look like forward.
 
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Of course I am speaking of the USA, legally things may be different in the EU.

I don't think your post tells the whole story in the USA, either.

EULAs are on shaky legal ground because they are an unconscionable form of a contract of adhesion (see also shrink wrap contract). Individual EULAs have been challenged and declared unenforceable in multiple cases (for example). Furthermore, even for the purpose of valid contracts there is dispute over what rights you can legally sign over; it is questionable whether clauses like the one couchpotato quoted, which forfeits the right to a jury trial, would hold up in court, especially since the EULA doesn't contain an arbitration clause - see below.

In my opinion - and I'll admit, contract law is not my area of expertise - EULAs are more scare documents than legally binding contracts. If you've ever had a job with a decent-sized company, you may have noticed that it required you to sign several forms when you applied for employment that said that you would not sue them. These are pretty much the same thing as EULAs. They don't actually prevent you from being able to sue the company if they legally wrong you, but they prevent many people from doing so nonetheless because those people, having signed the document and lacking an understanding of their rights, believe that it has the legal power to stop them from suing. (Arbitration clauses are the major exception to this, but even they can be overruled in the right circumstances.)

I am not sure why this is such a big deal. They have had such clauses in software for decades. Either you folks were not aware of it or it is just the shock someone actually enforced their rights to do so.

That's just the thing. The reason companies like EA are able to keep pushing the envelope on consumer rights issues is that very few people have the time, money and inclination to enter into a legal battle over what is generally seen as a relatively minor issue, especially since 1. EULAs are usually not used in such egregiously abusive ways as in this case, and 2. entering into a legal battle against a large, multimillion-dollar corporation such as EA will be especially costly, as they can generally bog down the issue in legal red tape for months. And remember, most lawyers charge hundreds of dollars per hour; certainly any decent enough to take on EA would. Thus, EA can afford to string out the case until the person attempting to sue them runs out of money, not entirely unlike the strategy Bethesda seemed to be pursuing in its recent disputes with Interplay. It's no coincidence that the examples I cited above in which EULAs were found unenforceable were cases involving one company facing off against another. The best way the average consumer can get a big company to change objectionable policies like this is to start threads about it and alert news sites in the hopes that bad publicity and the power of the all-mighty dollar will affect company policy. Finally, 3. generally, the only people with grounds for such a lawsuit are those who are directly wronged by the policy. If the person who got banned wanted to sue, he would have good legal grounds for doing so; if the rest of us wanted to sue, we would most likely not.

In short, to sue you'd have to be rich, have a great deal of free time on your hands that you were willing to devote to the issue instead of using it to, say, play other games, and be among the people who have been directly wronged by the EULA to stand a decent chance against a behemoth like EA. Very few, if any, people fit these criteria… but if EA keeps poking the hornets' nest and trying to enforce their so-called "rights", they're only increasing the likelihood that they will eventually be stung. Personally, I look forward to the day that the legality of EULAs in general is challenged in a federal court. I doubt they will hold up, and even if they do, at worst things will continue to operate as they do now. If the courts were to rule against them, though… well, that would be quite a blow to many policies gaming companies pursue that only hurt consumers.
 
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I don't think your post tells the whole story in the USA, either.

EULAs are on shaky legal ground because they are an unconscionable form of a contract of adhesion (see also shrink wrap contract). Individual EULAs have been challenged and declared unenforceable in multiple cases (for example). Furthermore, even for the purpose of valid contracts there is dispute over what rights you can legally sign over; it is questionable whether clauses like the one couchpotato quoted, which forfeits the right to a jury trial, would hold up in court, especially since the EULA doesn't contain an arbitration clause - see below.

I totally agree with the thin ice EULA's may stand on, legally. And was thinking about this very topic as I was typing my posts. But since this wasn't a legal debate or topic I decided against bringing this up. The point IMO wasn't could the EULA be challenged in court but did EA do something within their (currently accepted and defined) rights? And the answer is yes.
 
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No it is NOT 'yours' and never has been. Read the EULA's from the 80s if you dispute that. You have ALWAYS been paying to LEASE NOT OWN the software. And the companies can revoke the lease at ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON. Period. It really is a very simple concept.

Ah but see that right there is the crux of the problem. USUALLY YOU BUY SOMETHING ITS YOURS. It wasn't until the last 5-10 years that publishers wanted to enforce total control of there games. Somehow games and anything digital nowadays you magically have no rights.

I had no trouble with this in the past Nowadays you only leases a game. Digital downloading and using the said services is the cause if the problem. Most of the time no one cares till it happens to them. At least you always have the cracks from scene groups that the majority of you despise.

Now tell me how these digital services are whats best for the future of gaming?

Originally Posted by darkling View Post
Getting rid of the dicks will make the internet better. Interaction is interaction, regardless of the medium.

I'll use a somewhat silly example to illustrate. Let's say you're part of a non-competitive sports team. You get together every week and you play another non-competitive sports team (non-competitive meaning not professional, you're all just folks going and having fun and yeah you're playing to win, but you aren't a pro). At the event, one of the people is constantly using racial slurs at everyone in the match. You go to a bar afterwards with that group, that person continues to spew a stream of racial slurs at everyone. What do you do? Let the guy keep coming and ranting, pushing out any of the minorities in the group that would feel unsafe attending because he's just exercising his freedom of expression? Or tell him to GTFO because he's disruptive to everyone else who is taking part in the activity?

You ignore it its not hard to do now is it? I do it all the time online and in forums. I don't compare a digital or online service to a sport event or public outing.
 
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Getting rid of the dicks will make the internet better. Interaction is interaction, regardless of the medium.

I'll use a somewhat silly example to illustrate. Let's say you're part of a non-competitive sports team. You get together every week and you play another non-competitive sports team (non-competitive meaning not professional, you're all just folks going and having fun and yeah you're playing to win, but you aren't a pro). At the event, one of the people is constantly using racial slurs at everyone in the match. You go to a bar afterwards with that group, that person continues to spew a stream of racial slurs at everyone. What do you do? Let the guy keep coming and ranting, pushing out any of the minorities in the group that would feel unsafe attending because he's just exercising his freedom of expression? Or tell him to GTFO because he's disruptive to everyone else who is taking part in the activity?

The analogy doesn't hold because if I'm playing a single player game, I could be shouting obscenities at the top of my lungs, spewing vile and hateful things, and it affects no one else playing. I understand and agree that if you act like a complete dickbag on a message board or in an MMO, then you get shitcanned. But several of these cases aren't even about that - they're about moderators potentially not doing their due diligence, and as a result, banning people improperly, and the overall argument that a forum ban should not lock you out of a single player game.
 
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The analogy doesn't hold because if I'm playing a single player game, I could be shouting obscenities at the top of my lungs, spewing vile and hateful things, and it affects no one else playing. I understand and agree that if you act like a complete dickbag on a message board or in an MMO, then you get shitcanned. But several of these cases aren't even about that - they're about moderators potentially not doing their due diligence, and as a result, banning people improperly, and the overall argument that a forum ban should not lock you out of a single player game.

I agree as I stated I'm fine with banning from the message boards and online play. It crosses the line when I cant play my single player games. I find most moderators on most sites are fair. It's the ones on larger corporate sites that lack any common sense.
 
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Ah but see that right there is the crux of the problem. USUALLY YOU BUY SOMETHING ITS YOURS. It wasn't until the last 5-10 years that publishers wanted to enforce total control of there games. Somehow games and anything digital nowadays you magically have no rights.

Once again let me repeat myself. This has been in the EULA since the EARLY 80's. A bit longer then '5 or 10' yrs. I think you have either rose colored glasses on or simply unaware what has been going on for the past 25+ yrs. Either case these kind of clauses have been in EULA for a VERY long time. The only difference here is a major publisher is enforcing it and has the ability to do so unlike the 80s.

Please note I am NOT defending EA, I generally agree with what most people have said here in their opinions of the matter. I am however simply stating fact and the reality of the issue.
 
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Don't see a problem personally, its not like I want to buy or am interested in any EA games to begin with. For instance, Dragon Age 3 isn't exactly high on my want list, or for that matter on my want list at all. <shrug>
 
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Once again let me repeat myself. This has been in the EULA since the EARLY 80's. A bit longer then '5 or 10' yrs. I think you have either rose colored glasses on or simply unaware what has been going on for the past 25+ yrs. Either case these kind of clauses have been in EULA for a VERY long time. The only difference here is a major publisher is enforcing it and has the ability to do so unlike the 80s.

Please note I am NOT defending EA, I generally agree with what most people have said here in their opinions of the matter. I am however simply stating fact and the reality of the issue.

I know its been in the EULA. They just haven't been enforcing as they are now. I personally think its bullshit and cant wait for a supreme court ruling stop this.

I'm going to stop there because were going in circles and this topic just enforces EA hasn't changed at all. Sad as it is more company's will follow with there services.

The reality is nothing will happen as EA has the money and lawyers to what ever they want. We only have our law system to blame because of how it works.
 
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That's just the thing. The reason companies like EA are able to keep pushing the envelope on consumer rights issues is that very few people have the time, money and inclination to enter into a legal battle over what is generally seen as a relatively minor issue,

I agree to this.

Why do they do it ?

"Because they can."

And no-one stops them, (like no-one stopped the Nazis or recent drug brons because everyone was/is under the pressure of fear they create/had created), either out of lazyness or because of … well, not having time and money enough.

And those with the time and money won't help you.
 
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I am surprised that EA have not done this earlier; it is their forums and games that we are using/'renting' and hence it is within their own right to ban users from their forums and services. Since when do we own a game through Steam, since when do we own a house through mortage and so on and so forth. This is capitalism where the rules are dictated by these (modern slavery) organisations. The solution is simple as laid out by these organisation: if you don't like (agree) with our rules then don't buy our products and services. Freedom of speech and other human related laws are just an illusion.

The important question is what happens if one buys an EA game through Steam, Gamersgate .. etc. Will they be banning them through these services?
 
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I guess they erected "Origins" for not needing to rely on Steam and Gamersgate etc. ... (Oh, my grammar ...)
 
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I agree to this.

Why do they do it ?

"Because they can."

And no-one stops them, (like no-one stopped the Nazis or recent drug brons because everyone was/is under the pressure of fear they create/had created), either out of lazyness or because of … well, not having time and money enough.

And those with the time and money won't help you.

//points finger

Godwin's Law, Godwin's Law!

I'm surprised at how much defense of EA is in this thread. To me one shouldn't get banned from both for any reason unless its something extremely egregious.

it also may seem like poor customer service but I've banned several people from my old game server only to find they've buy second copies of the game to create a new account.
 
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//points finger

Godwin's Law, Godwin's Law!

Okay, I admit it, it was an bad example.

I could also have used hooligans as an example. They just create a feeling of fear in the air, and you just don't tackle them simply because you don't want to have their fist in your face.

And this "feeling of fear in the air" is exactly what lets them appear to be "unstoppable".

If you hear that a big, uge company has a battery of best lawyers available, this is a more sublte "feeling of fear in the air" they create. The subtlety imho lies within the fact that good lawyers can do so much.
And that they are paid by a big, huge company which will destroy you if you stand in the way of their corporate plans. I fear. ;)
 
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Seems we're all saying roughly the same thing, but are tremendously pissed off that it's not being said in the same words.

As it stands, the EULA is legal and binding, so everything EA is doing is OK to the letter of the law. There's no way around this basic fact.

EULAs have rarely been enforced to the full letter of the law. Thus, EA choosing to exercise the full extent of their legal options is unusual.

I don't think anyone so far has tremendous heartburn with forum behavior having consequences with online availability.

The idea of online behavoir (as subjectively judged) affecting offline availability is a new use of the EULA and we're not happy with it and expect that at some point it would be challenged in court. Further, companies standing on EULA haven't had much luck in the past, particularly outside of the US.

Did I miss anything?
 
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Seems we're all saying roughly the same thing, but are tremendously pissed off that it's not being said in the same words.

Thank you.

I was wondering if this thread could get any more redundant.


Don't see a problem personally, its not like I want to buy or am interested in any EA games to begin with.

I had the same thought at first, but then I remembered the Dead Space series.
 
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If you recall they added a change in policy where you cant sue them. The only way out was to write them a letter by a a certain deadline. Sony and Microsoft followed in there footsteps.

You can still sue but it is harder and you must pay some hefty penalty's and fees. You also wouldn't receive much money either.


Here is part of that EULA -

By accepting these terms, you and EA expressly waive the right to a trial by jury or to participate in a class action.

YOU UNDERSTAND THAT BY THIS PROVISION, YOU AND EA ARE FOREGOING THE RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND HAVE A JURY TRIAL.

YOU AND EA AGREE THAT EACH MAY BRING CLAIMS AGAINST THE OTHER ONLY IN YOUR OR ITS INDIVIDUAL CAPACITY, AND NOT AS A PLAINTIFF OR CLASS MEMBER IN ANY PURPORTED CLASS OR REPRESENTATIVE PROCEEDING.

It pays to read the fine print. You skip it and agree your screwed. You can blame all the idiots who filed bogus lawsuits just to get money over trivial things.

Yes, but these sorts of things don't hold up when actually taken to court.

Though I do agree that it would take someone with deep pockets to actually take this step. Someone that was actually POed enough by EA.
 
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