Steam - Summer Sale

the steam sale was on friday for $25 (hardly crap)
Ah, OK. Euro-zone here so it was €25 which is around 50% more than those retail deals.

Similarly with DA2 today. €30 doesn't seem like much of a bargain, but $30 probably isn't bad.
 
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The real bargains are in the UK at the moment - we're busy inflating our way out of debt, so even with tax, 2W2 is £8.50 ($13.70)
 
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the real deal today is for anyone whose been living in a cave to get probably the best multiplatform franchise (more than 2 games) of the last 5 years for about $25. All 3 Assassin's Creed games included for that price.
 
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ok, picked up torchlight.

was never interested in this game until seeing the $3 price tag.
 
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ok, picked up torchlight.

was never interested in this game until seeing the $3 price tag.

Me too. I liked the demo when it came out, and marked it as "buy when on sale". I missed the first time it was on sale, but I bought it yesterday. I never used to like the H&S genere much, but now, when I often only have a few minutes playtime in one session, I find myself enjoying the genre more because its easy to jump in and out and have some simple fun.
 
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Torchlight is pretty sucky if you want the best in the genre :)
 
Torchlight is pretty sucky if you want the best in the genre :)

The more reason to start with this one, that way I still have room to go up ;-)
The other one I''m currently playing is Titan Quest, btw. Played Diablo when it came out, but never got Diablo 2. That's it, I think.
 
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I forget that people don't really care what they're doing, as long as time is passing ;)

By all means, play Torchlight then!
 
Yeah, we can't all be as wonderful as you. Sad, but true ;)
 
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Torchlight is pretty sucky if you want the best in the genre :)

What's the best game in the quick to pick up, relatively mindless, slightly twitchy but seriously fun singleplayer action/fantasy genre then?

Torchlight is a brilliant game - nothing innovative, but very polished and addictive.
 
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What's the best game in the quick to pick up, relatively mindless, slightly twitchy but seriously fun singleplayer action/fantasy genre then?

Torchlight is a brilliant game - nothing innovative, but very polished and addictive.

I'm talking about the hack/slash genre - not the Torchlight-genre.

Obviously, it's subjective - and if you think Torchlight represents the best of the genre, then we simply disagree.

To me, Torchlight is a simplistic shallow clone of FATE with a small dose of Diablo - taking several steps back and none forward. They did it because it took no effort to make, and because they needed the cash to establish themselves. It was the opposite of what they did with Hellgate - and I think it was a very wise move.

Doesn't change what I think about it, though.

In fact, it's a symbol of how the casual gamer is dominating the mindset of developers.

Since I'm a big fan of evolution in game design, it shouldn't be a surprise that I don't think much of Torchlight.
 
Obviously, it's subjective - and if you think Torchlight represents the best of the genre, then we simply disagree.
Fair enough.

In fact, it's a symbol of how the casual gamer is dominating the mindset of developers.
Didn't we hear the same argument in Diablo vs Icewind Dale? Or Sonic vs Mario? Or pac-man vs well.. just about anything? Games started with the casual market, so it's nothing new.

Since I'm a big fan of evolution in game design, it shouldn't be a surprise that I don't think much of Torchlight.
Evolution for evolution's sake has ruined many games. There was a market for a game like Torchlight and it wasn't being addressed. Classics shouldn't be left to rot.
 
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Didn't we hear the same argument in Diablo vs Icewind Dale? Or Sonic vs Mario? Or pac-man vs well.. just about anything? Games started with the casual market, so it's nothing new.

You didn't hear the argument from me.

I'm not saying it's new.

Evolution for evolution's sake has ruined many games. There was a market for a game like Torchlight and it wasn't being addressed. Classics shouldn't be left to rot.

I'm not talking about evolution for the sake of evolution, but for the sake of the art of game design. I like it when the genres are taken forward - as it excites me.

What you like is your business.

There's a market for drugs, unhealthy food, prostitution, alchohol, weapons, slaves, and so on. So your point is worthless in itself.

In any case, I'm not saying Torchlight shouldn't exist or that you shouldn't buy it if you want it.

I'm saying it doesn't represent the best of the genre, and that's it.
 
I'm saying it doesn't represent the best of the genre, and that's it.

So I'm interested to hear your definition of the genre first, then your best game in it (so I can set it in context - we could just be arguing about different things - I could be saying an orange is the best citrus fruit, while you're saying rasberry is the best flavoured juice drink, while someone else says banannas are their favourite fruit, and someone else says lasagne is their favourite food).
 
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Torchlight was a nice budget interim game, but has nothing on the heavyweights of the ARPG loot based genre. It's not a bad game, but I don't know why people put it on a pedestal.
 
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So I'm interested to hear your definition of the genre first, then your best game in it (so I can set it in context - we could just be arguing about different things - I could be saying an orange is the best citrus fruit, while you're saying rasberry is the best flavoured juice drink, while someone else says banannas are their favourite fruit, and someone else says lasagne is their favourite food).

The genre is called hack & slash/Diablo-cone/action RPG - and it has evolved from Nethack. Diablo was the first popular "modern" version of the genre, and I consider it a "reset" in several ways. I personally consider Gauntlet an important game in the evolution of the genre - as it seems to have certain features lacking in Nethack - most prominently cooperative multiplayer. Gauntlet also has similar classes. Whether or not it belongs with the genre is hard to say - but I definitely think so.

Diablo innovated in terms of taking the established mechanics and the whole thing into a multiplayer action-driven game. It took steps backwards in terms of complexity, but it also took steps forward in terms of multiplayer and a strong action feel.

The Diablo-clone genre has evolved in several ways since then. You can argue every which way about what represents true evolution, but obviously that will be subjective.

I can give you details about what games evolved what features - but I don't really think it's worth the effort until we establish a common ground.

But games like Diablo 2, Titan Quest, Hellgate, Dungeon Siege 2, and others ALL evolved the genre in key ways.

FATE was developed by some guy called… Travis or something. Don't really remember. Anyway, it was almost a carbon copy of Diablo in terms of the feature-set. He added a "pet" that automatically carried your loot back to town - and that's about it for innovation.

Lots of people loved FATE - but unsurprisingly I wasn't impressed. I'm never impressed when people blatantly steal designs and profit from them. Also, it didn't have the absolutely essential multiplayer mode.

Anyway, that guy later worked on Mythos - which was a smaller concurrent project under Flagship Studios when they were launching Hellgate. After the Hellgate fiasco - they apparently took this Travis dude and started Runic Games.

Incidentally, everyone loved Mythos - and I thought it was a clunky mess with no vision in terms of design.

Torchlight is almost exactly like FATE - except with a Diablo-flavor.

Not only is Torchlight a strongly derivative Diablo-clone - it's also poorly designed in terms of character development. It also hasn't got multiplayer.

Essentially, they've made the same game three times - and each iteration is lacking something that's been vital to the genre since Diablo reinvented it.

The game is a bad clone of a game released in 1997 - AND it's made by several of the people who represent the KEY innovators of the genre with games like Diablo 2 and Hellgate.

To say I'm not impressed is putting it mildly.

So, if you want to salivate over Torchlight - could you at least step into a time machine and praise Diablo in 1997 instead. Back then, it was deserved.
 
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Torchlight was a nice budget interim game, but has nothing on the heavyweights of the ARPG loot based genre. It's not a bad game, but I don't know why people put it on a pedestal.

I'm not and I'm not sure if others do. I tried the demo and liked it as a typical "10 min break" game. For 3€ I think I'll get my moneys worth. I don't have much of a stake in the genre, as I said.
 
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