TechRaptor - Playing Roles: On Tactical RPGs @ TechRaptor
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Jagged Alliance 2 has shown that you can combine tactical combat and map conquering strategy with great exploration.
I really should of played this game by now. Everyone keeps recommending it and whenever I read discussions on tactical combat its '...its not as good as jagged alliance 2 but what is?'
Is it really that good?
JA2 will be next after Shadowrun HK 
Legends of Eisenwald is a great tactical RPG, loved it. Also I'm currently playing Might & Magic Heroes 6 (aka Heroes of Might & Magic). Liking it a lot too, except for the black screens and not being able to use weapons because I'm playing offline, but the core game is great.
Kordanor
Wastelander
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Yeah, Jagged Alliance really is that good. And basically from every perspective – except not being very easy to learn and the AI could have been better.
The core strength is a system which perfectly mimics reality and realistic possibility with a minimum of abstraction (to make it work in a turn based environment).
That’s the perfect opposite of Firaxis XCom which abstracts a lot, and with that extremely limits it’s core gameplay mechanic. There are more possibilities “outside” these core mechanics like armor and skills which add different possibilities, but the core combat and movement are highly abstract and non-intuitive.
Jagged Alliance can almost be seen as a “what you see is what you get” system. Or a “what you think is clever in reality is also clever in the game”.
A couple of examples: Person A is standing behind a window, Person B is standing behind a Wall.
XCom:
A (window) can shoot B (wall), and B can shoot A. Only difference A is behind low cover, B is behind high cover.
JA2:
Option 1: A can actually not see B because he is behind a wall. If you know due to another team member that B is behind the wall, and you want to shoot there anyways you can. Your merc will warn you that it’s basically impossible to hit. But you can do so anyways. And if the Wall is extremely thin A might actually hit B as the bullet goes through the wall but it will only do a fracture of damage, probably not worth it.
Option 2: If B doesn’t leave the wall, you will probably need to get into a position where you can shoot him. Now you can just run past his position so that you are in the same “side” of the wall. But there is an interruption mechanic, which calculates chances depending on viewing direction, experience level, and movement speed, if the other player gets an interruption within your turn. So let’s assume you run into his field of view: He will get an interruption and will shoot you. Now let’s say you walk into his field of view: He might still get the interruption and shoot you. But you might also stop one tile early, then turn your head into your opponents direction and then sidestep. In that case he might not get the interruption and you might be able to get the first hit. Once an character is hit, also the hitchance and AP of the enemy are sinking and he is less of a threat. You might also be able to go back to the other side of the wall after one shot, so that the enemy has to move first, which might render him unable to shoot back.
Option 3: If you know the direction the enemy is facing towards to, you might want to get into his back. Now if you run into that direction you generate noise. This might make the enemy turn into the direction the noise is coming from. So what you might want to do Instead is to sneak. Sneak doesn’t generate noise but takes much longer. That way however the surprise might be on your side so that you get the first hit. This is especially important when you fighting at night as your vision is limited and noises might be what gives your position away. For that purpose you also have camouflage, night vision goggles, and hearing aids.
Option 4: You might just wait, save all your points, face the direction where you expect to see the enemy, and hope for an interruption yourself if the enemy steps out.
And of course then you also have options like using Explosives to get rid of the wall, throw a frag grenade, or a smoke grenade and something similar. But the core game mechanics are extremely in depth.
And on top of that you have a layer so strategy with a “worldmap”, resource management (your mercs need to be paid), a light story and a character system which is quite intuitive and simple, but the ~70 characters also have personalities, which are also perfectly reflected by their great voiceovers. And these personalities are not just about liking / disliking other members and commenting on that. They also include things like a Biker called “Nails” who will not let you take away his Biker Vest. So no Kevlar Vest for that dude. Or Haywire…an automatic gun freak, when you give him the order to shoot, he might just turn his weapon to burst mode by himself, and shoot at the target like a maniac (while laughing).
All of that also generates perfect stories to tell.
The core strength is a system which perfectly mimics reality and realistic possibility with a minimum of abstraction (to make it work in a turn based environment).
That’s the perfect opposite of Firaxis XCom which abstracts a lot, and with that extremely limits it’s core gameplay mechanic. There are more possibilities “outside” these core mechanics like armor and skills which add different possibilities, but the core combat and movement are highly abstract and non-intuitive.
Jagged Alliance can almost be seen as a “what you see is what you get” system. Or a “what you think is clever in reality is also clever in the game”.
A couple of examples: Person A is standing behind a window, Person B is standing behind a Wall.
XCom:
A (window) can shoot B (wall), and B can shoot A. Only difference A is behind low cover, B is behind high cover.
JA2:
Option 1: A can actually not see B because he is behind a wall. If you know due to another team member that B is behind the wall, and you want to shoot there anyways you can. Your merc will warn you that it’s basically impossible to hit. But you can do so anyways. And if the Wall is extremely thin A might actually hit B as the bullet goes through the wall but it will only do a fracture of damage, probably not worth it.
Option 2: If B doesn’t leave the wall, you will probably need to get into a position where you can shoot him. Now you can just run past his position so that you are in the same “side” of the wall. But there is an interruption mechanic, which calculates chances depending on viewing direction, experience level, and movement speed, if the other player gets an interruption within your turn. So let’s assume you run into his field of view: He will get an interruption and will shoot you. Now let’s say you walk into his field of view: He might still get the interruption and shoot you. But you might also stop one tile early, then turn your head into your opponents direction and then sidestep. In that case he might not get the interruption and you might be able to get the first hit. Once an character is hit, also the hitchance and AP of the enemy are sinking and he is less of a threat. You might also be able to go back to the other side of the wall after one shot, so that the enemy has to move first, which might render him unable to shoot back.
Option 3: If you know the direction the enemy is facing towards to, you might want to get into his back. Now if you run into that direction you generate noise. This might make the enemy turn into the direction the noise is coming from. So what you might want to do Instead is to sneak. Sneak doesn’t generate noise but takes much longer. That way however the surprise might be on your side so that you get the first hit. This is especially important when you fighting at night as your vision is limited and noises might be what gives your position away. For that purpose you also have camouflage, night vision goggles, and hearing aids.
Option 4: You might just wait, save all your points, face the direction where you expect to see the enemy, and hope for an interruption yourself if the enemy steps out.
And of course then you also have options like using Explosives to get rid of the wall, throw a frag grenade, or a smoke grenade and something similar. But the core game mechanics are extremely in depth.
And on top of that you have a layer so strategy with a “worldmap”, resource management (your mercs need to be paid), a light story and a character system which is quite intuitive and simple, but the ~70 characters also have personalities, which are also perfectly reflected by their great voiceovers. And these personalities are not just about liking / disliking other members and commenting on that. They also include things like a Biker called “Nails” who will not let you take away his Biker Vest. So no Kevlar Vest for that dude. Or Haywire…an automatic gun freak, when you give him the order to shoot, he might just turn his weapon to burst mode by himself, and shoot at the target like a maniac (while laughing).
All of that also generates perfect stories to tell.
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2012
- Messages
- 4,699
Which is why noone has been able to effectively replicate it. Either they screw up the tactical system, which must have been difficult to program OR they copy the tactical system, but end up with a world and characters with no depth. Imagine paying 70 voice actors for characters who actually have a personality. That's why these low budget Jagged Alliance games just can't compete.