The Oldie Top Ten

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Too bad I never played RPGs earlier than the late 90s.

 

[Lucky Day]

On the other hand, old doesn't equal good. So saying that's the golden age (should referr to quality IMO) just because they were the first made is a bit odd. I'd rather call it the age of myth.

Personally I think the Golden Age starts with Fallout and ends with Ps:T, because then the games had reached a "decent" level of development graphicwise (Infinity Engine DOES look nice, especially for it's time. Not to mention that the graphic of games like Betrayal at Krondor makes me cry) and gameplaywise (meaning they had decent maps and journals). Or maybe that's because that's when I started playing cRPG's . Though I've read this definition somewhere else (it might have been Wikipedia).

If nothing else I'd like to know what was better about the games before Fallout .

Übereil

Oh please, that's like saying the Cosby Show was the Golden Age of Television.

The way you talk its like no one played these games in the 80's. There was once a time that Origin bragged that Ultima was the bestselling game series of all time.

I'm trying to remind people that cRPG's absolutely dominated PC gaming throughout the 80's. Before the NES, they were the games.

You also forget that Fallout was an update of Wasteland. The be all and end all of gaming is not Fallout. A lot of people said the same thing about Ultima 7 and Ultima 4. There was a LOT of good games before Fallout and the game is still fairly new.

Nor did it revive RPG's. As I said, it was MM6 and Diablo (arguably) that did that. Fallout's sales weren't spectacular and FO2 was released with serious bugs around the same time Baldur's Gate was kicking it and Ultima 9 around. Neither of these games I would consider an Oldie.

On the other hand, old doesn't equal good. So saying that's the golden age (should referr to quality IMO) just because they were the first made is a bit odd. I'd rather call it the age of myth.

Amen brother

and just because its new doesn't make it better either. too many people dismiss the roots of where these games came from including Wasteland.

frankly, JDR, if you don't like Oldies and can't understand the quality of them then, why are you even on this thread?

And no one here once said these older games are better.

 

[Ubereil]

Considering that I was 11 when I started playing Fallout 2 the pre-Fallout talk isn't very silly for me. Especially since Fallout was the earliest cRPG I've played (and got somewhere in).

The problem with older games (apart from installing them... ) usually is two things (as I mentioned) the graphics makes you cry blood (for someone who's used to all-3D at least) and the game lacks a map and a journal. That and lack of time/energy have prevented me from checking out what the fuzz about those old games are acually about. I've installed Ultima 7, but never come around to acually play it. I've tried Betrayal at Krondor and I stopped after five minutes because the graphics were just that horrible. I can live with simple graphics (think Ultima 7, which I think looks quite nice), but BaK had plain ugly graphics. I tried Ultima 5 (or was it 6?) Lazarus but stopped after an hour because of the flood of information made you lose track of things reeeeeal quick. I'm fully aware that I haven't really given anything prior to Fallout a chance, and therefore I can't really say anything about the acuall quality of these games (apart from graphic and gameplaywise, and that's naturally much better today).

And therefore I wonder what these oldies did better than today's games. And since I don't have the time/energy to acually go play them (at least not now) I think I'll have to settle for an explanation from you guys.

Übereil

 

[Fenris]

First 5 positions copy&pasted from my all-time top-ten:

1. Fate - Gates of Dawn (Amiga)
2. Realms of Arkania I - Blade of Destiny
3. Realms of Arkania II - Startrail
4. Legend of Faerghail (Amiga)
5. Dungeon Master

and then:

6. Amberstar
7. Ambermoon (Amiga)
8. Wizardry VI
9. Darksun I
10. Eye of the Beholder II

Well, after Number 8 I could as well have placed Daggerfall, Shadows over Riva, Ultima Underworld 2, Eye of the Beholder I, Lands of Lore I, Albion, Arena, Darklands, Wizardry VII, Might and Magic III, IV, V...

 

[Jaz]

I know I'm going to recieve flak for saying Darksun is better

...than Fallout (to complete the quote). Not from me. I also loved p&p Darksun and the video game. On the other hand, I never liked post-apoc settings - neither Gamma World nor Fallout appealed to me, so for me Darksun > Fallout.
Oh well, there goes Corwin's 'men with guns' theory...

 

[JDR13]

and just because its new doesn't make it better either. too many people dismiss the roots of where these games came from including Wasteland.

frankly, JDR, if you don't like Oldies and can't understand the quality of them then, why are you even on this thread?

And no one here once said these older games are better.

It looks to me like you need to actually attempt to read and understand people's posts before replying.

Where did you see me imply that the oldies were inferior to newer games? I simply said I didn't think they were better than today's games. I also said,

"Just like today, there were good games and bad games"

You can hop off your nostalgic horse whenever you'd like friend.

 

[Lucky Day]

Whatever JDR. Don't act like your typical flippant attitude is anything but. If you are trying to claim it was a simple comment then you lose it by your facetious remarks like that one and the ones before.

The Modern vs Old thread is here.

---

By bringing up the idea of a Golden Age I'm simply trying to put this discussion in perspective. The definition of "Oldie" seems to be a problem in this discussion.

As far as some people are concerned in this thread the dominance of RPG's in the 80's doesn't register with them. Many people here weren't even born. I can understand that actually. I'm simply saying you can't dismiss these games.

The games may be unplayable now to individuals who never saw them but back then, in the context with what was available, there is a reason they were so popular.

Most were incredibly innovative. Can you not say Ultima IV didn't change gaming forever?

With the dearth RTS or FPS of the week todays in contrast this era of development was constantly reinventing itself.

 

[Ubereil]

Can you not say Ultima IV didn't change gaming forever?

Well, since I never said that, I guess it's fully possible.

(That's what you get for using double negations. )

Übereil

 

[skavenhorde]

...than Fallout (to complete the quote). Not from me. I also loved p&p Darksun and the video game. On the other hand, I never liked post-apoc settings - neither Gamma World nor Fallout appealed to me, so for me Darksun > Fallout.
Oh well, there goes Corwin's 'men with guns' theory...

Thanks Jaz I thought I was maybe the only one out of a very few people that loved those games and that world. How cool is it you can have a half-dwarf, an insect, a half giant and your not so run of the mill preserver in your party. I loved that whole world. It is like Global Warmin on steroids. Also nothing was normal. Elves were thieves and liers, halflings were cannibal little guys who would rather slit your throat than speak to you and then you have THE one and only dragon that used to be human. Now that is what I call a refreshing change of pace from your usual D&D world.

 

[skavenhorde]

The games may be unplayable now to individuals who never saw them but back then, in the context with what was available, there is a reason they were so popular.

Damn right they was a reason they were so popular. I guess lucky day and I had it lucky (pardun the pun) because we played these games before they invented the brain dead shooter of today. The focus couldn't be on graphics in those days like it is now. It had to be in making something fun and new. Also a lot of imagination goes into these games where as today you are spoon fed your imagination to you. Even with that said I'm not saying that the old games are better or worse, they are what they are.

Most were incredibly innovative. Can you not say Ultima IV didn't change gaming forever?

With the dearth RTS or FPS of the week todays in contrast this era of development was constantly reinventing itself.

Starflight was innovative and incredible. They put so much data into two floppy. They put whole star systems in such a little amount of space and guess what it was excellent. It was a sandbox adventure slight rpg game all rolled into one. I even play that one now and if you could seriously get over the graphics issue for just a few seconds and give these games a real try, you might find out that they are fun. Probably not though because you have to actually use your brain while you play it and you have to write notes down. There is no arrow pointing to show you where to go. Also just because the graphics sucked some companies did a pretty cool thing to minimize their effect. The original Pool of Radience and mostly all gold box game came with a journal which you had to look up certain parts in the journal and it would tell you what you are seeing. Just like a DM in the P&P version. I think that is pretty awsome today.

But if someone is so dependent on the computer doing all of your thinking for you then more power to ya because your missing out on a lot of hours of enjoyment. But that's your choice not mine, just saying you should really try some not play for a few hours and give up because you can see a pixel. OooH NO I saw a PIXAL runnnnnnnnn it's going to try to make me use my imagination. AHHHHHHH..... Ok that was a bit over the top but you get my meaning.

 

[Jaz]

Now that is what I call a refreshing change of pace from your usual D&D world.

I also loved the first five Darksun novels, they were rather entertaining... and so not-Forgotten Realms.

 

[skavenhorde]

I also loved the first five Darksun novels, they were rather entertaining... and so not-Forgotten Realms.

You read them too. I can't even remember their names now but when they were coming out it was all about the freedom TYR and getting back at those nasty templars. They were great. I'm Glad to see another Darksun fan here

 

[Ubereil]

But if someone is so dependent on the computer doing all of your thinking for you...

I don't want the computer to think for me, I want it to keep track of things for me. I'm bad at keeping track on things like names (especially names) and what to do where. I don't want to know exactly what to do, a "You are to go to A and do B for C" is sufficient (the Arcanum journal is an exelent example). I think the reason I only played a few hours though (exept in Betrayal at Krondor, when the graphics were just really, really ugly) was that I didn't know I had to keep track on these things myself, so when I realized I wouldn't be able to keep track on things I gave up.

Übereil

 

[Dasale]

On the other hand, old doesn't equal good. So saying that's the golden age (should referr to quality IMO) just because they were the first made is a bit odd. I'd rather call it the age of myth.

Personally I think the Golden Age starts with Fallout and ends with Ps:T,
...Or maybe that's because that's when I started playing cRPG's . Though I've read this definition somewhere else (it might have been Wikipedia).

If nothing else I'd like to know what was better about the games before Fallout .

Woo a young guy! Not sure there's only one official definition for CRPG golden age but it's certainly not something that starts with Fallout!

I totally see what you mean when you quote Fallout. For PsT well I didn't got any date with it despite multiple attempts! That said I'm not sure for The Witcher but I'm sure for Gothic 2 with NOTR, they look to me more golden!

What's weird is that graphic is such a barrier for many. Even the more realistic still doesn't picture reality, it's still at symbol level and your mind do a strong job. It's like to say that novels aren't the golden age because the graphics aren't there. Objectively that makes no sense. I feel a tougher problem is linked to the interface design. Eventually lack of auto logs and auto maps can be more objective barriers than graphics.

 

[Dasale]

@Dasale- For its day, Moria was pretty solid. There are a lot of games built on the roguelike model. Although Moria wasn't the first roguelike, I'd argue that it did more to popularize the style than its predecessors.

In fact I also played Rogue roughly at same time. Rogue add few features not in Moria but I enjoyed more Moria. That said, it's not an ascii problem, it's just that the gameplay was very very basic.

 

[JDR13]

Whatever JDR. Don't act like your typical flippant attitude is anything but. If you are trying to claim it was a simple comment then you lose it by your facetious remarks like that one and the ones before.

The Modern vs Old thread is here.

It's truly a shame that good discussions here at the Watch are sometimes interrupted by such ignorance and bias, people shouldn't be flamed just because they don't share the exact same view as someone else. All of the sudden I'm "flippant" and "facetious" just because I don't think that pre-1990 was the golden age of gaming. Looks to me like someone is showing their true colors.

 

[xSamhainx]

Ok I like fallout. It's a great game but all this pre fallout/post fallout talk is a little silly..

It's not about the actual quality of Fallout, it's more of a notorious time-stamp of the gaming eras that most people recognize. When youre talking all this Dark Sun bizness, you might as well be speaking chinese to most people.

I dont play those old titles because I have a choice not to. Not because I want to let someone or something else do the thinking for me, it's because ugly, primitive games do not appeal to me. That's like saying talking pictures took off because people were too lazy and didnt want to read. With the advent of the talkies came not only spoken dialogue but musical soundtrack, greater ways of expressing the art of film evolved. I'm not interested in turning back the hands of time when it comes to computer games, not as far back as B.F.

In my opinion, the great era of computer RPG gaming, on an affordable machine and accessible to people of average computer literacy was around the time of Fallout. That's the "great awakening" if you will of the modern pc gaming era

 

[Lucky Day]

I see your poitn Samhain but the same thing can and is said about black and white movies.

First off, I like Silent movies and enjoy them for what they are. Do you know what the most watched movie in history is? Its not Gone With the Wind, Star Wars, or Titanic. Its Birth of a Nation one of the most racist films ever made. Its hardly watchable for that yet there are scenes in it that are incredible. You mention Talkies. Well, what about The Jazz Singer? Again, try sitting through it today. As for wonderful four colours Phantom of the Opera was the one of the first movies with Technicolor scenes.

The point is is people watched these movies in droves for their qualities. They are dated today for sure but they gave foundations for movie making for years and films like Battleship Potemkin brought fantastic ideas to the genre that moved it leaps and bounds.

Citizen Kane may be the high mark of movies (and its not in color I remind you) but all of the film ideas that Orson Welles used like three focus lenses and pits for worms eye views had all been done before. I say it again: Fallout is based on Wasteland.

And do I need to remind that some people won't play games that aren't full 3D anymore? They are unplayable to them too, but does it make Fallout a bad game?

 

[Corwin]

Also important, is the heritage. I laugh when people say things like 'old games had nothing different in them from modern games'. I could be wrong, but I think UU was the first use of red and blue beakers to show health and mana. This idea was later used in many/most other games, but the innovation came from early rpg's.
BaK did not have ugly graphics, it was an initial foray into creating a 3D look and feel. I replayed it a couple of years ago, and while it's not pretty, it's still a fantastic game if you just lower your graphic standards a little. There was a great deal of innovation in that game and you only lessen yourself by not experiencing it. I find Wiz 6 hard to play because of the old, dated graphics and interface, but it's still a great and in some ways revolutionary game.

Lazy gamers annoy me. I remember drawing maps by hand for every area and every dungeon. I remember filling notebooks up with info about quests and characters. You had to be involved in all aspects of the GAME, not just point and click!! Sure I like mini maps and journals too, but I still have all my old maps and notes and I still remember those games better than 90% of the current crop!! Still, you kiddies are entitled to your opinions, no matter how wrong they are!!

 

[xSamhainx]

@ Lucky Day
You need not give a lesson on film history, my friend. I have Birth of a Nation, Cabinet of Dr Caligari, Faust, Metropolis, and many other silent classics in my collection and know full well of and appreciate the importance of early cinema. I can sit through them just fine actually, though it is quite rare that I can get anyone else to!

My point is not that old rpg games or films are meaningless relics that are better left forgotten in the wake of their "superior" successors. I'm merely trying to defend against this insinuation that those of us who are only interested in sinking hours of our lives into A.F. games are simply lazy and unimaginitive, and need everything spoonfed to us visually. That's not the case, any moreso than people who flocked to the films with sound were. They wanted to experience everything that the medium of film could provide.

I'm well aware of Wasteland's significance. However, I'd rather experience more of what this medium is able to provide in the way of visual presentation and sound, thus I play it's subsequent incarnation- Fallout.