US Forces kill Bin Laden.

[blatantninja]

Comparing 3000 Americans to 50.000.000 people. That's arrogance talking right there. Osama is no worse than most leaders in the world today, he's just more in the media because he happened to kill Americans and not Africans, South Americans or Asians.

OBL is responsible for far more than 3000 Americans. Every single death in the war in Afghanistan lands right in his lap. How many deaths have occurred by the various AQ cells through out the world? Just about any death in the past 20 years attributable to Islamic extremism, he's had his hands in, either directly or indirectly. That is closer to millions, not a few thousand. Not 50MM, sure, but once you're past the few hundred thousand, I don't think the degree of evil really gets any worse.

Wrong, the brain behind 9/11 and most similar episodes is Ayman al-Zawahiri, who is expected to be the next leader of AQ.

Uhh, are you familiar with how division of labor works? OBL hadn't been the operational leader of AQ for a long time. And as I said he was "extremely charismatic and inspiring to those that were susceptible to his message of hate."

I never said he was the brains behind it. And Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the brains behind 9/11, not al-Zawahiri.

I don't live "here in the US", I live outside it, and it's been quiet here as well. AQ has hardly done anything in recent years, and the few things they have done have been administrated and planned on a local level. There is no indication this will stop because Osama is gone.

If you live in a western country, then yes, it has been relatively quite (though Turkey has had some AQ related attacks), but AQ has been extremely active in Africa and Asia.

In fact, most terrorism isn't even related to AQ and muslims, it's usually some small group of political fanatics.

Got facts behind that? Sure, there is some political purpose to it, but AQ has aligned cells and organizations fighting in Indonesia, India, China, Somalia, and numerous other places.

Yes, and then it will continue as it did before. Nothing accomplished, except even more lives lost for a period of time.

Do you think LESS lives would have been lost if OBL was still around? If the US just pulled out of Afghanistan and let AQ have their base back? Or is it just ok with you if rather than a bunch of people in Afghanistan/Pakistan (that are harboring terrorists) die, it's civilians in the US and western Europe (and Africa and Asia since they won't stop there either) instead?

The whole war is a matter of revenge. Either that or oil.

Yeah, those oil fields of Afghanistan are just flowing!

We were attacked, we attacked back. That isn't revenge, that is defense. Know the difference.

The irony of it all is that this war of revenge is killing your own country more than it's killing anyone else - the amount of money put into warfare instead of rebuilding your nation is crazy. If American politicians wanted to actually help the people of the US, they'd invest money in schools, hospitals and jobs, not bombs and tanks.

We have enough money to do both. The problems with the US fiscal budget are not the war.

That would benefit millions of US citizens, something this neverending war will never be able to.

As someone that works in the high value target area of NYC, I am quite ok with my government spending the money to protect our soil from external threats.

The scenario is very different: During WWII, the threat was not a handful of people with limited resources - it was a "kill or be killed" situation involving various super powers.

It's really not that different. AQ and the Taliban effectively controlled Afghanistan. They had a stated goal of restoring a caliph in the middle east, with a capital in Baghdad. They have the firm belief that anywhere that has even been islamic must ALWAYS been islamic, and should be ruled by a fundamentalist state.

Adios Spain. Adios Turkey. It may have taken them them a long, long time to accomplish it, but hey our good friends in Iran managed it, so why not Iraq, or Saudi Arabia? Where would they go from there?

The world would have been a better place if someone had stopped Hitler before he came to power, or at least before he started invading other countries (*cough* Warsaw appeasement *cough*). Waiting until AQ had fomented revolutions in the Middle East would have posed a massively dangerous situation, far worse than anything we find ourselves in now.

To bring back the example you brought up with Hitler - I'm fairly certain most ignorant people out there would call it an excellent idea to kill Hitler. Perhaps if you could time it right, but overall? No, a horrible idea, as his successor would most likely be someone like Heinrich Himmler - and Germany could've won the war for all we know.

You can always make hypothetical arguments that support your position. Let's stick to facts.

OBL was an evil human being. He can no longer inspire others to do evil on his behalf. This is a good thing.

 

[Maylander]

I see what you are saying, but I'll simply counter with this. We didn't start this war. You can of course go into all the various diplomatic arrangements and other dealings of the past 60 years and we can talk about who screwed who where, but we didn't start this war.

OBL started trying to spark a war with the US simply because we had the gall to free Kuwait in 1990, with the full support of Saudi Arabia, and then kept our forces in SA, at the invitation of the SA government. He finally got his wish with 9/11.

Innocents die in war. It sucks, but it is what happens. If someone was cheering the death of Obama, or Petereus, they either are enemy sympathizers or simply don't understand who started the war.

Heh, you really are clueless. Having this debate with someone who honestly thinks 9/11 was the start of anything is rather pointless, but I'll give it a go anyway.

This whole "war" has nothing to do with 9/11 - that's just another chapter. It basically boils down to how Israel was re-created out of nowhere, pushing thousands (if not millions) out of their homes. Quite a few died too. Osama's main objective was the removal of Israel, and the removal of US forces in general in the Arabic region. He considered all those invasions, the creation of Israel, etc to be an act of war against him and his people.

Imagine how Americans would feel if the UN - backed by the entire world - suddenly decided to relocate everyone in New York, in order to give the land back to the indians because the indians lived there a few centuries ago? There would be war, oh yes, you can bet on it.

Three thousand innocents is a drop in the ocean in this rather long conflict I'm afraid - the only reason people noticed is because it happened in the US instead of in "some foreign country where killing them by the thousands doesn't really matter". It's not like people in the Arabic world have feelings, right?

Of course, the real issue here is Jerusalem. Always has been. The conflict won't end until Jerusalem is in rubbles. Then again, Jerusalem has been in rubbles several times, and every time it just gets rebuilt and the fighting continues.

I really have no idea how to end this, it may not be possible at this point. The best we can do it mind our own business over here and stop getting involved all the time.

 

[blatantninja]

Well, that's one way to look at it…. or does it date back to the the Israel situation? how many innocents from both sides haven't been killed there? and it is fairly obvious which religion the U.S. has been supporting. Besides not all innocents were killed in wars.. but also in raids and other things.

I am no fan of Israel or our support of them, but Israel would exist, whether or not the US was supporting them. Like or it not, they are well trained warriors, and they won their war of independence with virtually no direct help from the west.

Well, looking at this in a practical way? how much information was lost? I mean the people killed in that raid probably sat on a lot of information about AQ… this is my concern…. ?

Yeah, that is a very good point. Of course, it is easy to second guess when we are all sitting behind our comfy computers. With any luck, they probably at least seized some laptops or other intel during the raid.

The legacies of the cold war are fading, its what's been done in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan thats going to be biting us for the next twenty-five years.

We royally screwed up in both Iraq and Afghanistan, IMO. Not that going into either was a bad idea, but the manner in which the wars were conducted reeked of incompetence and zero plans for exit strategy.

Hopefully, the positive changes going on in Libya, Egypt, Syria, etc. will continue, succeed, and define the next few decades of the middle east. No matter how bad Iraq is, if the people there see prosperity and peace in those other countries, the extremists are going to have a hard time finding converts.

 

[Tragos]

I remember well all those "god bless americas" in the internet , i bet you know that all christians are born guilty so cut the crap about "innocents"

WTC thing was just another act of the war you started , i didn't saw any cry over the villages in Sudan and Afghanistan that were hit by usan missiles afterwards , no cry for over 100.000 Iraqis , no cry over 1000's of Pakistanis bombed by your drones so i feel no sympathy.
On the other hand it is amusing that you are celebrating the death of a guy identical with your political leaders.

 

[pibbur]

It's not possible for me to cherish the death of anyone, but I have to say that I'm not particularly sad in this case. And it's not difficult to understand the celebrations in the US.

As to the long term effects - nobody knows for sure. But I've seen comments about Bin Laden being a charismatic leader and not readily replaced. That makes sense to me.

Regarding the use of violence, I do believe that there are regimes and organizations that are so ruthless, that the only way of stopping them is by using force. Hitler and Pol Pot have been mentioned. So I'm not in principle against using violence. AQ is of course small scale compared to those two, but maybe just as ruthless? Whether its' sensible to go after him like this, is of course another question. For which I have no answer.

Says pibbur, who for the record to some degree supports the war in Afghanistan, but not the war in Iraq.

 

[Rithrandil]

I'm not a christian, Tragos.

 

[blatantninja]

Heh, you really are clueless. Having this debate with someone who honestly thinks 9/11 was the start of anything is rather pointless, but I'll give it a go anyway.

You're calling me clueless when you didn't even know who the brains behind 9/11 was?

This whole "war" has nothing to do with 9/11 - that's just another chapter.

Not really. There definitely was some build up, but all of AQ's efforts prior to 9/11 (the USS Cole, the first WTC bomb, the African Embassy bombings) amounted to little more than a fly buzzing around the US. We swatted at it a little, but generally ignored it.

9/11 was a hornet sting on the tip of our nose. OBL wanted a direct war with the US and had been trying to foster one since the Sauds went with the US instead of his mujaheddin in 1990. He finally got it in 2001. You should try reading 'The Cell', it has a lot of background of AQ's attempts to foster war with the US.

It basically boils down to how Israel was re-created out of nowhere, pushing thousands (if not millions) out of their homes. Quite a few died too. Osama's main objective was the removal of Israel, and the removal of US forces in general in the Arabic region. He considered all those invasions, the creation of Israel, etc to be an act of war against him and his people.

Israel factored very little into OBL's hatred of the US. He certainly didn't like us because of it (and of course we weren't allied with Israel until well after its establishment), but he was smart enough to understand that with or without US aid, Israel was a reality. It was only when we began stationing troops in the 'holy' land of Arabia that his hatred towards the US really took off.

Imagine how Americans would feel if the UN - backed by the entire world - suddenly decided to relocate everyone in New York, in order to give the land back to the indians because the indians lived there a few centuries ago? There would be war, oh yes, you can bet on it.

As I said, I am no fan of Israel. This however is a complete strawman to the argument at hand.

Three thousand innocents is a drop in the ocean in this rather long conflict I'm afraid - the only reason people noticed is because it happened in the US instead of in "some foreign country where killing them by the thousands doesn't really matter". It's not like people in the Arabic world have feelings, right?

So basically, it was ok for them to kill 3000+ Americans and we should have just brushed it off?

Sorry, but the American military's job is to protect American lives. Americans were killed, the military went to make sure it didn't happen again. It's that simple.

Of course, the real issue here is Jerusalem. Always has been. The conflict won't end until Jerusalem is in rubbles. Then again, Jerusalem has been in rubbles several times, and every time it just gets rebuilt and the fighting continues.

The only possible peaceful solution is an independent statehood for Jerusalem, government by a pan-religious body, so no one has claim to it. It has been proposed though, and rejected by both parties every time.

I really have no idea how to end this, it may not be possible at this point. The best we can do it mind our own business over here and stop getting involved all the time.

Even if the US pulled out of every foreign engagement, it wouldn't matter. People like OBL would still exist and they would still try to enforce their view of the world on the rest of us. And if one of them ever got in a real political position of power, we could end up with WWIII. As bad as things may be now, I'd much rather have the relatively isolated violence we have than a worldwide war fought between nation states.

 

[blatantninja]

I remember well all those "god bless americas" in the internet , i bet you know that all christians are born guilty so cut the crap about "innocents"

Yeah, but once we're baptised, we wash away original since and get to be innocent for a while!

WTC thing was just another act of the war you started , i didn't saw any cry over the villages in Sudan and Afghanistan that were hit by usan missiles afterwards , no cry for over 100.000 Iraqis , no cry over 1000's of Pakistanis bombed by your drones so i feel no sympathy.
On the other hand it is amusing that you are celebrating the death of a guy identical with your political leaders.

We didn't start the war as has been posted about a dozen times already.

And out political leaders (at least the ones with real power) aren't advocating the killing of civilians. Sure it does happen some as collateral damage or by accident, but we don't target them. It's the difference between civility and barbarism.

 

[Tragos]

We didn't start the war as has been posted about a dozen times already.

And out political leaders (at least the ones with real power) aren't advocating the killing of civilians. Sure it does happen some as collateral damage or by accident, but we don't target them. It's the difference between civility and barbarism.

You did started it by financially supporting corrupted murderous regimes ...i don't have to remind you what Hilary said about Mubarak , how your drones killed civilians in Yemen and elsewhere , now if all those people stage an attack and flatten the pentagon will it be again them who started it ?
The marketplace of Nis (this is in Serbia) & Doctors without Borders convoy in Kosovo were military targets?
You are no better than osama

Eh and the photo of the dead body is shopped , someone copy/pasted the beard of real OBL to an unrelated corpse.

 

[dteowner]

I'd rather we weren't dancing in the streets over this, though. Treat it as simply taking care of business. One of the lasting images from 9-11 for me was a bunch of jackoffs in Lebanon quite literally dancing in the streets over the attack. I'd rather not allow our current joy to become next week's al-Qaida recruiting video.

 

[dteowner]

You did started it by financially supporting corrupted murderous regimes …

By your anarchic lights, ALL regimes are corrupt and murderous. Guess we can eliminate all foreign aid from future budgets, eh? That's what you're recommending, yes? For that matter, the EU would be under the same stricture, so I guess all that foreign aid that's currently keeping your country from turning into an oversized Fallout map should get yanked as well, right? Careful, or D'Art will send you to Thinking101.

 

[blatantninja]

You did started it by financially supporting corrupted murderous regimes …i don't have to remind you what Hilary said about Mubarak , how your drones killed civilians in Yemen and elsewhere , now if all those people stage an attack and flatten the pentagon will it be again them who started it ?
The marketplace of Nis (this is in Serbia) & Doctors without Borders convoy in Kosovo were military targets?

Wow, scatter shoot much? yes, we supported a lot of regimes that in hindsight, that wasn't such a good idea. But that didn't start the war. OBL only spoke out against US support of them AFTER 1990.

How many drones did we fire into 'Yemen and elsewhere' prior to 9/11? How many?

You want to bring Serbia and Kosovo into this? Seriously? Are you really going to defend the ethnic cleansing of the Serbs? And do you even think the OBL gave two shits about Serbia? He wasn't really interested in defending the lives of Christians.

You are no better than osama

Right. You got me there. LOL

Eh and the photo of the dead body is shopped , someone copy/pasted the beard of real OBL to an unrelated corpse.

Yeah, that photo came out at least 6 months ago, but people are trying to play it as real.

 

[blatantninja]

I'd rather we weren't dancing in the streets over this, though. Treat it as simply taking care of business. One of the lasting images from 9-11 for me was a bunch of jackoffs in Lebanon quite literally dancing in the streets over the attack. I'd rather not allow our current joy to become next week's al-Qaida recruiting video.

I think its a factor more of war wariness than anything. America needed a victory, and we finally got one.

 

[hishadow]

Its disappointing that this was kill mission. Rather than making him a martyr it would be better to have him stand military trail. Anyway, can we now get an end to the police state business, please!

Hehe, I like the tweet from the guy complaining on the US helicopter:

Go away helicopter - before I take out my giant swatter

 

[GothicGothicness]

I'd rather we weren't dancing in the streets over this, though. Treat it as simply taking care of business. One of the lasting images from 9-11 for me was a bunch of jackoffs in Lebanon quite literally dancing in the streets over the attack. I'd rather not allow our current joy to become next week's al-Qaida recruiting video.

You got my point exactly. Thanks for that DTE.

I am no fan of Israel or our support of them, but Israel would exist, whether or not the US was supporting them. Like or it not, they are well trained warriors, and they won their war of independence with virtually no direct help from the west.

Israel would exist but it would be a Muslim state and not dominated by the jews. The problem with this thing is none knows who it belongs to but the people living there just know that suddenly their land were occupied by a bunch of jews, they were not the one who took the land in the first place. So yes the idea of a international council feeling sorry for the Indians and giving them back New York is very valid. How would you feel if your house was given to an Indian chief? and you had to make his garden?

 

[Warmark]

The only sad thing about it is that they shot him. I think abducting and having him tried in front of a court would have been a much stronger message - although I realize that the difficulties with such an approach might be huge - they didn't even manage it with the comparably smaller fish in Guantanamo.
Just recently, however, I saw a documentation on the Nuremberg trials, and I think it is rather impressive how quickly, yet thoroughly that court was held, and the lasting effect for germany was huge, I believe. A swift but fair trial would have been the best way to deal with terrorists as well.

Still, as a blow agains Al Qaeda, I can't help but applaud.

Well said.

 

[blatantninja]

Israel would exist but it would be a Muslim state and not dominated by the jews.

I don't think so. The 1948 war was fought largely by jews with little to no outside support, and they won. They had no interest in allowing a non-jewish state on what they perceive as their land. Even without the UN division decree, after what happened in Europe, unless someone intervened on the other side of the war, the jews were going to win.

Would they have survived past that? Hard to say, but I think so.

The problem with this thing is none knows who it belongs to but the people living there just know that suddenly their land were occupied by a bunch of jews, they were not the one who took the land in the first place. So yes the idea of a international council feeling sorry for the Indians and giving them back New York is very valid. How would you feel if your house was given to an Indian chief? and you had to make his garden?

I've made this argument myself many times. It's one of the main reasons I don't support modern Israel, though at this point, as you say, everything is so mixed, it's hard to imagine it ever getting sorted out. In the 50's or 60's, maybe, but now with multiple generations on Israelis, its basically impossible.

 

[Captain Buzzkill]

Wow...I'm going to let other people fight over the "rightness" or "wrongness" of this particular event, or how it fits into the historical context of who's to blame for everything.

The world is a fucked up place. Always has been. Human beings are cruel, terrible animals, sometimes. It's worse now, because there's a camera within 2 hours of every event that occurs, especially anything involving death and destruction. I don't hold any illusions that we're ever going to change, as a species, and that's too bad, really.

Osama bin Laden was a bad, bad guy. My decision to enlist in the military was influenced a great deal by his existence. I don't think anyone who hasn't served in the military can understand how I'm feeling right now. After serving in a war that I was personally conflicted over, after enduring so many questions and taunts about how we're killing everyone except the one that took the credit for the events of Sept. 11th, after seeing the broken bodies of enemies and friends alike...

I am glad that this has been done. I'm glad that we finally got him. I'm glad that we didn't engage in the circus of capture and trial. I'm glad it wasn't a drone, but a dedicated, hard-charging, nerves-of-steel trigger-puller that finally put him down.

That's all I'll say.

 

[dteowner]

You got my point exactly. Thanks for that DTE.

It was a very impacting bit of video. Quite honestly, that reaction may have made a larger impression on me than the attack itself. Took PJ a good 3 years of conversation to get me past wanting to turn that entire country into a parking lot. Can't imagine the experience of watching New York today would be much different for some kid in Yemen, given some creative editting.

I understand the joy. Be smug. Be cocky. "Fuck with us and die". But act like this is an expected outcome, and not like hitting the lottery.

 

[Thrasher]

I too think it barbaric and distasteful to celebrate someone's murder, not matter how evil that person may be. It would have been much better to put him on trial, expose his crimes in detail to the world, and lock him away for eternity. Less chance for martyrdom. I also think someone else will step up to take his place, and this probably serves little useful purpose in the long run.

Nonetheless I am not sad he was killed.

I agree with DTE and GG on this point of view.

I'd rather we weren't dancing in the streets over this, though. Treat it as simply taking care of business. One of the lasting images from 9-11 for me was a bunch of jackoffs in Lebanon quite literally dancing in the streets over the attack. I'd rather not allow our current joy to become next week's al-Qaida recruiting video.