Tail wagging the dog ?
Will Bush Attack Iran Before Leaving Office?
- Thread starter magerette
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Where the smaller part of the whole is actually in control, against common sense and common perception.
Oh, thanks dte. I still believe it's not one of those cases...
... I'm not quite sure where to put this ...
I've just seen an TV report featuring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo on the Guantanamo and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prison tortures.
He says, that - according to his own experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment - the environment made the "normal" people (read: soldiers) into torturers.
The point is that these people are thrown into a new situation which they don't really know how to handle.
In fact, they have never learned how to handle prisoners.
Nevertheless they are given might and power over them.
Thus - according to his own experiments - their expression of might and powerr went loose. They had never learned how to handle this situation, so they just made something up - and became torturers.
His http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment experiment was compared several times with the situation of Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. In fact, the impression I got was that the situation in both cases is identical.
In his opinion, the system made the normal soldiers into torturers by distorting the point of view they had of all people from the Iraq.
In his opinion, the Bush government "demonized" the Iraq people, made virtually EVERY ONE into an enemy of the american nation. They stripped everything of humanity off the Iraq people.
In the result, the soldiers got the impression of being in an constant war. EVERYONE is an enemy in Iraq, but you can't see it. You don't know who will strike next. Who can be trusted, who not ?
This goes on the nerves, so to say, of the soldiers, and that distorts their point of view. Iraq people are no humans anymore.
Thus they feel as if they are allowed to do EVERYTHING they see fit in handling the prisoners. They even received a mention for getting prisoners into telling things. No matter which method used.
According to him, the situations of both his experiment and the real prisons are the same. (At least that's how I understood the TV report), that's why an element of torture could evolve there.
A web site which might have been the background of this TV report could be this one : http://www.lucifereffect.com It is based on a book written by him.
I've just seen an TV report featuring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo on the Guantanamo and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prison tortures.
He says, that - according to his own experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment - the environment made the "normal" people (read: soldiers) into torturers.
The point is that these people are thrown into a new situation which they don't really know how to handle.
In fact, they have never learned how to handle prisoners.
Nevertheless they are given might and power over them.
Thus - according to his own experiments - their expression of might and powerr went loose. They had never learned how to handle this situation, so they just made something up - and became torturers.
His http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment experiment was compared several times with the situation of Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. In fact, the impression I got was that the situation in both cases is identical.
In his opinion, the system made the normal soldiers into torturers by distorting the point of view they had of all people from the Iraq.
In his opinion, the Bush government "demonized" the Iraq people, made virtually EVERY ONE into an enemy of the american nation. They stripped everything of humanity off the Iraq people.
In the result, the soldiers got the impression of being in an constant war. EVERYONE is an enemy in Iraq, but you can't see it. You don't know who will strike next. Who can be trusted, who not ?
This goes on the nerves, so to say, of the soldiers, and that distorts their point of view. Iraq people are no humans anymore.
Thus they feel as if they are allowed to do EVERYTHING they see fit in handling the prisoners. They even received a mention for getting prisoners into telling things. No matter which method used.
According to him, the situations of both his experiment and the real prisons are the same. (At least that's how I understood the TV report), that's why an element of torture could evolve there.
A web site which might have been the background of this TV report could be this one : http://www.lucifereffect.com It is based on a book written by him.
Yes, it came from the Milgram experiment to see how evil people are. How normal people were actually able to do atrocities to people in the second World War.
People were invited for an experiment. They were shown in by two people dressed in doctor's white outfits. Another man who was part of the experiment was sitting in a chair. The first thing they said was that the man can stop whenever he wants to. He just has to get up from his seat and leave.
He was to read words aloud from a list and the other man had to know the order by heart or he was asked questions and he had to respond. The man who was sitting on a chair in the other room was tied to a machine which was electrically hooked to the man. If the man answered correctly then the man had to move on the next question if not he had to shock the guy. Everytime he answered wrongly the voltage had to go up.
Most men who were in the experiment went on until the man in the other room was screaming in agony of pain. Very few left early. Some even continued until the voltage level, were it real, would have killed the man. Others asked the 'scientists' if they could leave. The scientists only response to that was that the experiment had to go on. So, those people stayed in their chairs and continued even though at the start of the experiment they were told they could leave, they just had to get up and leave.
Here's a modern take on it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6GxIuljT3w
People were invited for an experiment. They were shown in by two people dressed in doctor's white outfits. Another man who was part of the experiment was sitting in a chair. The first thing they said was that the man can stop whenever he wants to. He just has to get up from his seat and leave.
He was to read words aloud from a list and the other man had to know the order by heart or he was asked questions and he had to respond. The man who was sitting on a chair in the other room was tied to a machine which was electrically hooked to the man. If the man answered correctly then the man had to move on the next question if not he had to shock the guy. Everytime he answered wrongly the voltage had to go up.
Most men who were in the experiment went on until the man in the other room was screaming in agony of pain. Very few left early. Some even continued until the voltage level, were it real, would have killed the man. Others asked the 'scientists' if they could leave. The scientists only response to that was that the experiment had to go on. So, those people stayed in their chairs and continued even though at the start of the experiment they were told they could leave, they just had to get up and leave.
Here's a modern take on it : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6GxIuljT3w
dteowner
Shoegazer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080721/ap_on_re_mi_ea/obama_holy_land_1
Perhaps Obama isn't quite the "cure for all that ails us" on the international stage. So much for one of his supposed selling points. Cue lefty spin doctors...
Perhaps Obama isn't quite the "cure for all that ails us" on the international stage. So much for one of his supposed selling points. Cue lefty spin doctors...
magerette
Hedgewitch
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Responding in Pavlovian manner to cue:
Grasping at straws a bit, aren't we? I'd say that was a bit of conservative spin, myself. The poor righties are desperate for anything that will counter the good press he's got so far, and the MSM has to keep the horse race on the front burner--yep, that 40 year old Jerusalem construction worker's skepticism is going to make a huge impact on world affairs.
Show me some demonstrations, even some protest signs in the hands of the average guy over there and I'll start to worry.
Seriously, Obama's not God, no matter how the media and some of his 'Kool-aid drinking' followers might want him to be. He's going to be greeted with negativity as well as adulation. I'm actually surprised not to see more of it. I guess it's a worldwide case of Bush fatigue.
Someone somewhere in my political blog wanderings made the interesting comment that the more-or-less rockstar positive coverage of Obama from the press will be transformed into the biggest hate-fest ever should he be elected and as he begins to tackle all the mess in his first term and the glamour fades. The premise is the media will turn on him like barracudas. And I have to say if he is elected I don't expect he's going to be able to live up to the expectations being set by all the present hoopla. That should put some dem blood in the water and cheer you up.
Grasping at straws a bit, aren't we? I'd say that was a bit of conservative spin, myself. The poor righties are desperate for anything that will counter the good press he's got so far, and the MSM has to keep the horse race on the front burner--yep, that 40 year old Jerusalem construction worker's skepticism is going to make a huge impact on world affairs.
Show me some demonstrations, even some protest signs in the hands of the average guy over there and I'll start to worry.Seriously, Obama's not God, no matter how the media and some of his 'Kool-aid drinking' followers might want him to be. He's going to be greeted with negativity as well as adulation. I'm actually surprised not to see more of it. I guess it's a worldwide case of Bush fatigue.
Someone somewhere in my political blog wanderings made the interesting comment that the more-or-less rockstar positive coverage of Obama from the press will be transformed into the biggest hate-fest ever should he be elected and as he begins to tackle all the mess in his first term and the glamour fades. The premise is the media will turn on him like barracudas. And I have to say if he is elected I don't expect he's going to be able to live up to the expectations being set by all the present hoopla. That should put some dem blood in the water and cheer you up.
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Israeli analyst*suggests turning nuclear Iran against Egypt.
He argues that Shia dominance is prefereable to the Sunni's.
See this: http://samsonblinded.org/blog/use-iran-against-egypt.htm
He argues that Shia dominance is prefereable to the Sunni's.
See this: http://samsonblinded.org/blog/use-iran-against-egypt.htm
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Prime Junta
RPGCodex' Little BRO
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Calling that claptrap "analysis" is a bit of a stretch, to say the least. It's more illustrative of the author's paranoia than any realities in the region.
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zahratustra
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Well, I am in generous mood PJ so I would just call this article a "pipe dream of an armchair strategist" 
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This article is complete #@$! ...
Iran = Babylon ? Except geographically, how ?
Iran = Babylon ? Except geographically, how ?
zahratustra
SasqWatch
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In this sense: http://www.ibs.org/bible/verse/?q=Jeremiah maybe?
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Absolutely
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