Dartagnan said:Two months before release they're not ready to show a single thing about the systems and mechanics? Sure
Dartagnan said:I want to see the character creation process, a character sheet, loot details and so on.
Archangel said:I am with Dart on this one. They are not showing anything. We still don't know if there will be subclasses which is a basic character class feature in 5e.
The question is why? Do you think they haven't actually been making a D&D game? Also, don't forget games do get delayed.
If you were following Diablo3 development you'd have noticed that they balanced all the monsters and items just two weeks before the game went gold. What type of things did Blizzard PR show us? They never gave us the raw damage numbers - only a general idea how a select few things worked. There was no character creation at all. The numbers are rebalanced all the time.
A games classes perks need to be set in relation to the monsters and everything else. This all sort of slowly comes together at the same time. One monster seems a little weak, give it a bit more STR. Oh, wait. Now the fighter class is getting killed too easily while the wizard is having too easy a time. Lets give fighter more HP to soak the extra damage from the STR while not having him kill the monster any faser. Obviously this is a made up scenario but you get the picture. I wouldn't expect hard class numbers pre-release at all. Just more boring storyline character crap.
SCL is 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons so you could pretty much start there if you really wanted to learn more about the mechanics. Become familiar with 5E, make comparisons to tabletop and sound like you know what you're talking about instead of sitting back complaining that they're not selling it to you well enough whilst having nothing to say that you'd want to hear yourself!
Ok, sure, D&D games can be poorly made.Pool of Radiance 2 was a D&D game, so I guess this will be one as well - almost no matter what.
I'm super interested in character creation too. In NWN2 that was all I did because the campaign put me to sleep for some reason.I'm not interested in raw damage numbers. If I was I'd have asked about them. I'm interested in details about the D&D implementation, and for that I'd need a character creation process, a character sheet - and other similar things.
I just know its a recent game we both played from the biggest, richest developer around which launched in poor shape but eventually got to where it wanted to be though listening to the community and observing what people were doing. (and nerfing it.) Even NWN didn't get really good until all the expansions were out.I don't know what Blizzard has to do with any of this. I generally don't worry about Blizzard, as they tend to know what they're doing. They represent a proven developer.
That said, I would have worried a lot if I had been shown details of Diablo 3 mechanics this close to release - as they're not very good.
But how will you know if they're implemented correctly?I don't want to learn about 5th Edition mechanics, I want to learn about how SCL has implemented them.
Yeah, but…. Forget itIt's not really rocket science.
But you are though. You're in the complaints and doubts section acting jaded. The optimistic hope people can talk about things they hope make it. "wouldnt it be cool if this, imagine if that was in!"I'm not complaining about anything. They don't owe me anything.
If it doesn't have a good class system I'll be very surprised. Along with that "arcane fighter" (not correct name) point from before, we have the standard races. Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half-elf and something. Along with the standard classes Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief and also Ranger, Paladin. (ed: NOT "guardian fighter", "control mage", as with Neverwinter Online.)I'm observing what they're showing us, and I'm pointing out why there's cause for concern - if you care about the longer term. That's because I think having a rich and complex character system was key to the long term success of NWN. I don't think just making endless modules will be much fun, if I'm going to be playing a character that takes no investment - and I'll be bored very quickly with a simplistic system.
You've decided you don't like everything about it based off an irrational emotional investment!! Say one thing that looks good about it, I dare you!That's because I haven't already decided to like everything about it, based on an irrational emotional investment.
Believe me, I want to get a new NWN more than anything. I absolutely loved NWN, and I still play it.
This, however, smells of something else.
It smells much more like the recent Neverwinter MMO in a local cooperative format. If you want to know how NOT to implement D&D, that's the game you want to check out.
They have Wizards of the Coast on board too. Do you really think WOTC will let them butcher the game? I got the impression that everything was bounced off WOTC before it goes into the game.
I just know its a recent game we both played from the biggest, richest developer around which launched in poor shape but eventually got to where it wanted to be though listening to the community and observing what people were doing. (and nerfing it.) Even NWN didn't get really good until all the expansions were out.
But how will you know if they're implemented correctly?
Yut you are though. You're in the complaints and doubts section acting jaded. The optimistic hope people can talk about things they hope make it. "wouldnt it be cool if this, imagine if that was in!"
I think you mean to say "I don't owe them anything"
If it doesn't have a good class system I'll be very surprised. Along with that "arcane fighter" (not correct name) point from before, we have the standard races. Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half-elf and something. Along with the standard classes Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief and also Ranger, Paladin. (ed: NOT "guardian fighter", "control mage", as with Neverwinter Online.)
You've decided you don't like everything about it based off an irrational emotional investment!! Say one thing that looks good about it, I dare you!
How can it ever be your new NWN if you won't let it be your new NWN?
It looks absolutely nothing like Neverwinter Online. Where did you get that from?
In terms of how shallow it seems at this point, coupled with how it releases without so many important classes.
Sword Coast Legends devs have mentioned they limited the class/race scope because of their small team size. Also, when they started to work on the game they probably didn't even have the final list of classes/features (5th edition released one year ago, July 2014).
Out of 5e editions we have already seen things like
- martial archetype (Battlemaster Fighter, Necromancer Wizard, Assassin Rogue appear to be companions archetype, there was also a Cleric casting Chain Lighting in a video which is only possible if the Tempest Domain archetype is in). I doubt the player will be stuck with a Necromancer Wizard, so I expect more than one per class.
- racial traits, mentioned by both devs and journalists when talking about their hands-on character at E3.
- subraces, there are three dwarven companions, each one with its own subrace (someone must really like Dwarves at N-Space).
- DC for bashing, lockpicking, spotting hidden things
- Saving throws for traps/spells
- dual wielding along with various armor and weapon types
- the E3 trailer showed 5th edition appropriate AC, HP and weapon damage on top of it.
The only thing that we can wonder is if they put in the rule of switching an ability score increase for a feat at level up (only way to get a feat in 5e, note those feats have nothing in common with 3rd edition feats) and multiclassing (kinda redundant with some archetypes though).
The most none-5th edition feature is the cooldown, but that might just be their implementation of short/long rest.
How does 5E work when it comes to multiclassing?
I can't agree about multiclassing being redundant with archetypes.
Multiclassing is somewhat similar to 3E (sprinkled with older editions):
- you gain class attribute increase per class level (because this is now a class feature, not overall progression like in 3E)
- spells per day is based on total spellcaster levels and not each classes independently. The table is shared, so a 5 level cleric/5 level wizard will use a single level 10 spell per day table.
- first class choice is dominant for proficiency (weapons, armor, abilities and skills), you will only get a subset for your subsequent classes choices.
- there are ability score prerequisites for classes (no alignment limitation though)
They haven't mentioned it, so I'm going to consider it out at this point.
As for the redundant comment, it's more that some of the archetypes are basically doing what multiclassing would do (of course pending them being in the game). For example, if you want a cleric/fighter you are probably better with the War Domain archetype which comes with all the cleric features plus extra attacks and heavy armor proficiency (which the fighter would provide).
Skyrim?Actually think, like you are a real person and capable of original thought.
Okay. What the fuck? What fucking kind of monkey-savage crpg is being developed for the pc and has a list for an inventory? Zork in 1982? I’ve seen a ton of fucking ASCII games that had a real GUI inventory and not a list. Can anyone think of a game that was developed for the pc that had a list for an inventory (and come out after 1987)? You cannot.
You included a developer quote that goes against what you were saying?Here is the developer quote-
Originally posted by ForkliftKiller:
Hold on there, I'll address what I can here. No need to get crazy.
3. Console Influence. You know, I can't think of anything in the game that would appear to be made for consoles. The one main thing argued about is the inventory being a list vs a grid. What are you seeing besides this? Personally I like a grid inventory, but we opted for the list. Not that anybody believes us but we made that decision well outside of the decision to release on consoles. This game was built for PC's from the get go and designed as such. We really had no clue if there'd be a console version up until a bit before we announced the console version. What you may be seeing is the overall evolution of the genre started in the old IE games with some more modern amenities.
Okay, back on topic. We all know what games designed for consoles means. Stupid. Chock full o’ stupid. Mindless monkey gameplay for monkeys, helmet needers, children, savages, and the stupids.
Great post, btw.The most none-5th edition feature is the cooldown, but that might just be their implementation of short/long rest.
Why?dartagnan said:I happen to despise cooldowns, so that's not good.
Doesn't sound very neutral and objective to me... But whats this about what your heart wants? Let your heart speak for a while, I want to hear what he has to say.dartagnan said:But I'm cursed with the ability to stay neutral and objective - counter to what my heart wants.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCC_b5WHLX0dartagnan said:I don't really know what you think you're doing here. Are you telling me I'm something I'm not - and perhaps you're hoping to convince me?
Do you know anything about me?
Skyrim?
I bet you're one of those people who has their Explorer windows set to "Large Icons" where mine is set to "Details".
You can have a lot of information visible with a list so you don't have to mouseover everything to see its details.
If I was having trouble managing a massive directory of files I'm not going to switch to Icons, I'm going to sort by Name, Date, etc…(or load up xtree gold xD) Can do the same with weapons, scrolls, potions.
What kinda monkey console whatever can't work with a list?
You included a developer quote that goes against what you were saying?
PC first. It was always PC first because the whole deal was Digital Extremes great success self publishing Warframe on steam and them being their new publisher instead of taking the usual port work from industry giants.
Anyway, consoles are now using x86 CPUs and I have a controller for my PC so the lines are getting more blurred.
Dude, pretty much every big game these days has a multiplatform release. Publishers just won't pick you up if you refuse to do console. PC only games are MMORPG, MOBA or from little indie devs. Everything has been a console game for years. Just be thankful everything isn't a moblie game.
Why?
You don't care to read the 5E rules because you want to see if their implementation works and yet you already despise it without even having to try it.
Doesn't sound very neutral and objective to me… But whats this about what your heart wants? Let your heart speak for a while, I want to hear what he has to say.
My kids made Christmas lists for Santa at three. I want my games to use technology that can’t be grasped and used by three year olds.
You really can't work out a reason to have a cooldown on a move?I hate waiting for no reason.
I just told you. My heart wants a true NWN successor, not a shallow or half-assed game. I'm hoping to be wrong about SCL, but at this point - I remain very sceptical.
That's what neutral and objective people tend to do.
You really can't work out a reason to have a cooldown on a move?
I like your "glass half full" perspective of your "glass half empty" stance on the matter.
Holy crap, you just took hyperbolic madness to the next level.
I think the main point was how primitive and simple lists are? This is an argument for their efficacy. Why would you want a complex and convoluted system rather than one so simple a three year old could use it?
Ok, so, lists suck?If lists are so great for rpgs then why do only console rpgs use them? Because they suck and are stupid and there are much better choices, that’s why. Civilization.
Aww, efficacy is more than just possibility its about doing the job well.Your use of efficacy actually proves my point; which I absolutely love. Efficacy is the ability to produce the desired result. The desired result of using a list in an rpg is so controller using monkey people can be stupid with less hassle than a real GUI inventory would cause them. Fuck the keyboard and mouse users, as well as science and civilization and equal rights for woman.
Wait a second, this UI sounds awfully complex with its 70 buttons. No one could expect monkey folk savages to remember 70 buttons. So where are we now? Are lists too simple or too complex?Or it could be by efficacy you mean drive civilized people fucking nuts with a console controller savage UI that requires me to hit 70 buttons to accomplish something I could have done in two seconds with a civilized real crpg GUI.
errrrr...In all cases you would be correct and I agree with you
Woah, slow down there, buddy, you're the one quoting an incorrect definition.But since you seemed to use the word efficacy as to mean something so simple and intuitive even a stupid-ass idiot three year old can grasp the concept and use it proficiently, I would agree with that statement.
So we're definitely back to simple again and that 70 buttons thing is in the trash.Clicker Hero encapsulates your idea of rpg efficacy.
You want deep systems you can think about but also don't want a huge learning barrier or shit control scheme to slog through to get to the deep systems. There's no point replacing the button to move forward from a single up-arrow to a convoluted combination of keystrokes. There is a point using an inventory system that works best for everyone. PC users can use the mouse and scroll with the mousewheel down a "single column grid" with the most pertinent information always onscreen.I also would apply your meaning of efficacy to what happens to rpgs that get designed for consoles. It is called consollitis. I like complexity, even when it is convoluted. I should say especially when it is convoluted. That is the defining characteristic of what makes a good rpg a good rpg in my opinion. All my favorite rpgs are convoluted. I think the illuminati or whoever is running this circus should impose their will on all game developers that every single rpg has to be more complex than necessary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKIoEr2ZXD8SPACE EXPLORATION! TECHNOLOGY! HAIRPIE! EQUALITY! COMPUTERS! THE FUTURE! CIVILIZATION! MARS ROVER! PLUTO IS NOT A PLANET! CONTROLLERS ARE FOR MONKEY SAVAGES! RAPE IS BAD! UNDERWEAR WITH TERRIFIC BALL SUPPORT! INVENTING GOOD THINGS! SCIENCE! SCIENCE! AND EVEN MORE SCIENCE WINNING!
Ok, so, lists suck?
Aww, efficacy is more than just possibility its about doing the job well.
So these primitive monkey people have low intelligence and therefore require a simple way to achieve the same results that an intelligent person can achieve with this complex methods. One would assume the more intelligent species would have no trouble using the method designed for the monkey folk.
Wait a second, this UI sounds awfully complex with its 70 buttons. No one could expect monkey folk savages to remember 70 buttons. So where are we now? Are lists too simple or too complex?
errrrr…
Woah, slow down there, buddy, you're the one quoting an incorrect definition.
So we're definitely back to simple again and that 70 buttons thing is in the trash.
You want deep systems you can think about but also don't want a huge learning barrier or shit control scheme to slog through to get to the deep systems. There's no point replacing the button to move forward from a single up-arrow to a convoluted combination of keystrokes. There is a point using an inventory system that works best for everyone. PC users can use the mouse and scroll with the mousewheel down a "single column grid" with the most pertinent information always onscreen.
Grid inventories can turn into a complete mess, too. If you've been questing and all your bags are full its a pain in the ass to sort through which are quest items and which are junk and crafting materials, etc, etc. You start to require these type of inventories to come with auto-sort features to make up for how bad they are to manage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKIoEr2ZXD8