Grimoire - On Steam Greenlight

[sakichop]

I think steam redlight would be a better place for this one.

 

[luj1]

Few things…

1. I don't doubt that Cleve as a person, probably, is an obnoxious idiot with serious trolling capabilities.
2. Despite everything, I'm positive this game is actually a lot of fun. Especially for fans of party-based crawlers like Wizardry or W&W.
3. Lastly, none of this means it will be released anytime soon. Even if it's on Greenlight. I'll believe it once I see it in my download queue on GoG.

 

[Lucky Day]

Why? The game is so outdated at this point, I can't see it really appealing to anyone other than those looking for an extremely retro experience.

I was just thinking of the timing and how everything is circular in computers.

Haven't you noticed the trend in 8-bit games?

Literally everything is so old its new again. I bet Cleve could get this working smooth on a phone. He's launching it just at the right time.

--

Yeah, Cleve can't seem to help himself. He's getting seriously trolled and he can't help but take the bait (who's baiting whom - right Hillary?).

How long does this stay on Greenlight before Steam runs scared Cleve's statements, present and past, and the Codex crew that have followed him there?

Also, what's the deal that accuser saying the assets are from another game. I don't believe it but is he produced any evidence?

 

[Roq]

Yeah, Cleve can't seem to help himself. He's getting seriously trolled and he can't help but take the bait (who's baiting whom - right Hillary?).

Also, what's the deal that accuser saying the assets are from another game. I don't believe it but is he produced any evidence?

There is a story, which may be true, that Cleve worked on a game called Stones Of Arnhem (if I remember correctly) for Sirtek, intended to be a sequel for wiz 7, until it got cancelled. The accusation appears to be that he took artwork from that. I doubt this is true, since how would the accusing guy, who appears to be a random troll, know?

And I don't take it as a given that Cleve lacks integrity as many people appear to think here. I think the delays and "broken promises" are really just scope creep and an inability to appreciate how long things really take. And you can accuse practically every game project that was ever conceived of that (just look at all those Kickstarters! and Diablo3 and…) - or if not that the far worse sin of releasing a totally unfinished and buggy product… Can't say I'm not myself guilty of missing a few deadlines, but unlike Cleve, I was being paid for my time and noone was accsuing me of intentional procrastination.

And responding to trolls is just a total waste of time that can leave you with egg on your face. And really it should be avoided when it affects your professional reputation: viz Derek Smart, Mark Jacobs etc. Wish CB would finally larn that.

 

[pibbur who]

@Roq: A couple of issues I might respond to here, but I won't. We've both made clear where we stand, hopefully in a good way - your arguments are certainly well presented.

You are more positive to the projected than I am. I can see the sense in that (correct Engliush?), although I still disagree. I'm fine with that.

So I say thank you.

pibbur who still doesn't know if he'll get the game or not, which is only natural. After all it's more than a day until it ships. In other words, plenty of time to change his mind. And to change his mind again.

 

[Roq]

@Roq: A couple of issues I might respond to here, but I won't. We've both made clear where we stand, hopefully in a good way - your arguments are certainly well presented.

You are more positive to the projected than I am. I can see the sense in that (correct Engliush?), although I still disagree. I'm fine with that.

So I say thank you.

pibbur who still doesn't know if he'll get the game or not, which is only natural. After all it's more than a day until it ships. In other words, plenty of time to change his mind. And to change his mind again.

Well who knows maybe it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. But it is so easy to back yourself into a corner on the internet and be defined by that ever afterwards. And if you have a little notoriety, some people appear to like picking away at your weaknesses to bring you down and in order to piggy back on that notoriety. At some stage we really need to say that it's all water under the bridge. Certainly, I'm glad that some of the mistakes I made when I was younger aren't archived for all time on the internetz.

"Correct Engliush?" Perfectly comprehensible... but for that final vowel, no doubt a slip of pen, of which I am often guilty too .

 

[NewDArt]

Well who knows maybe it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. But it is so easy to back yourself into a corner on the internet and be defined by that ever afterwards. And if you have a little notoriety, some people appear to like picking away at your weaknesses to bring you down and in order to piggy back on that notoriety. At some stage we really need to say that it's all water under the bridge. Certainly, I'm glad that some of the mistakes I made when I was younger aren't archived for all time on the internetz.

"Correct Engliush?" Perfectly comprehensible… but for that final vowel, no doubt a slip of pen, of which I am often guilty too .

Yes, playing a role until others lock you down in that role - is a very unfortunate, but also very real human phenomenon. I mean, didn't we all go to school, once?

Obviously, some people have less tolerance for it than others.

 

[Capt. Huggy Face]

Repeatedly ranting about gays and the mongrel races bringing about the destruction of society is considered just "playing a role" and "Internet antics?" Forgive me if I don't feel any empathy for him backing himself into that corner.

 

[NewDArt]

Repeatedly ranting about gays and the mongrel races bringing about the destruction of society is considered just "playing a role" and "Internet antics?"

I'm not going to tell others how to interpret his behavior.

Has he done nothing but rant and rave, though?

But it's been my impression that his confrontations with the Codex and Internet in general have escalated his statements over the years.

Whether that means he's truly a completely insane bigot - or that he's just playing the role he made for himself - with the help of others, I don't know - but that's my response to it.

I mean, until you've been exposed to the rants and ravings of thousands of Internet warriors on a daily basis - for many, many years - I would be cautious about drawing too harsh a conclusion.

But that's just me.

Also, I feel zero empathy for him. I'm just going by my understanding of human beings and how they can sometimes follow the wrong path for surprisingly understandable reasons.

 

[Hastar]

If the game is as good as Corwin says and I believe Corwin then Clive could have released it years ago. He is just trolling us and likes the attention. That's why I won't buy it. I would have got this game years ago but I don't like to be punked for 15+ years. Punk me for 5 and I am cool with that.

I will just play games like Underrail, Eador and Swords and Sorcery. Hell I played Devils Whiskey when he was saying he was almost finished with Grimoire.

 

[fadedc]

I'm not going to tell others how to interpret his behavior.

Has he done nothing but rant and rave, though?

But it's been my impression that his confrontations with the Codex and Internet in general have escalated his statements over the years.

Whether that means he's truly a completely insane bigot - or that he's just playing the role he made for himself - with the help of others, I don't know - but that's my response to it.

I mean, until you've been exposed to the rants and ravings of thousands of Internet warriors on a daily basis - for many, many years - I would be cautious about drawing too harsh a conclusion.

But that's just me.

Also, I feel zero empathy for him. I'm just going by my understanding of human beings and how they can sometimes follow the wrong path for surprisingly understandable reasons.

Well it's not like he just acts like that on internet gaming forums. Cleve has had at least one non gaming website that was designed to rally people in their hatred against minorities. You can't really claim that this was the result of some arguments on RPGcodex.

But like some have said, people are complicated. If I required that everyone I buy from be a good person, I'd probably have to give up on a lot games. Within the context of gaming his delusional rants are more of a concern for me because they cause me to distrust other things he says (especially when combined with his history on the project).

 

[NewDArt]

Well it's not like he just acts like that on internet gaming forums. Cleve has had at least one non gaming website that was designed to rally people in their hatred against minorities. You can't really claim that this was the result of some arguments on RPGcodex.

But like some have said, people are complicated. If I required that everyone I buy from be a good person, I'd probably have to give up on a lot games. Within the context of gaming his delusional rants are more of a concern for me because they cause me to distrust other things he says (especially when combined with his history on the project).

I'm not claiming anything, I'm giving you my impression of the man. Because there's a single example of him saying something inappropriate on another Internet site doesn't exactly change that the potential source of his behavior can be found elsewhere.

Also, I'm not saying he's not a "bad man" - I'm simply refusing to moralise or claim to know anything about him leading to a "value judgement" - as a fact.

I simply don't believe Internet statements is a good way to do that. Too many unknowns - and I've never actually met the man.

 

[Roq]

If the game is as good as Corwin says and I believe Corwin then Clive could have released it years ago. He is just trolling us and likes the attention. That's why I won't buy it. I would have got this game years ago but I don't like to be punked for 15+ years. Punk me for 5 and I am cool with that.

I will just play games like Underrail, Eador and Swords and Sorcery. Hell I played Devils Whiskey when he was saying he was almost finished with Grimoire.

This theory really doesn't fly and it's totally ridiculous for many reasons: When the demo came out a few years ago, the project clearly was not finished to a high standard and had many bugs and annoyances. And that was just the demo bit, which is a tiny portion of the whole game. In addition Cleve has added many things since then, animations, sound… So a much more sensible explanation is that he has been polishing and balancing the game, which can take much longer than most people think. Really his reluctance to toss unfinished stuff out of the door is highly commendable behaviour.

Have a look at the indiegogo video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDyXSCd2Lp0 at around 10:09. You should then be able to see that balancing that lot is likely to be no trivial task. And in an RPG you need to get it pretty spot on, otherwise it will be ruined by overlevelling, quests that don't allow progress etc etc. (we've all seen it before haven't we?). Perhaps even now he won't have it bullet proof. But, he appears to have given it a good shot.

And, of course the only person to really lose out by the delays is Cleve himself. We just have manage expectations of what one person is capable of doing, better. Really this is a very very ambitious attempt. We don't know yet how it will turn out, but you have got to give the guy some points for trying .

 

[Darkbridger]

Well it's not like he just acts like that on internet gaming forums. Cleve has had at least one non gaming website that was designed to rally people in their hatred against minorities. You can't really claim that this was the result of some arguments on RPGcodex.

But like some have said, people are complicated. If I required that everyone I buy from be a good person, I'd probably have to give up on a lot games. Within the context of gaming his delusional rants are more of a concern for me because they cause me to distrust other things he says (especially when combined with his history on the project).

I've been a lurking follower of this game since it was first announced and read comments from this guy in a wide variety of forums. I also wouldn't dismiss what I've seen along the way. Also, when a game is made predominately by one person, it's a lot harder to separate the man from his creation. Even when teams are involved, key people can have a very large impact on the public perception of the game and even the company.

My backlog would have to be completely empty, there would need to be multiple good reviews from trusted sources, and the game would need to be heavily discounted before it manages to pry any money out of my hands.

 

[fadedc]

I'm not claiming anything, I'm giving you my impression of the man. Because there's a single example of him saying something inappropriate on another Internet site doesn't exactly change that the potential source of his behavior can be found elsewhere.

Also, I'm not saying he's not a "bad man" - I'm simply refusing to moralise or claim to know anything about him leading to a "value judgement" - as a fact.

I simply don't believe Internet statements is a good way to do that. Too many unknowns - and I've never actually met the man.

Well to be clear, we are not talking about a single example of posting something on a another site. We are talking about him running a website with the sole purpose of spreading his ideas. That gives you a pretty good idea of what someone is about.

But otherwise I agree, there are always alot of unknown variables and we don't really know much about what goes on behind the keyboard. And to be fair as well, people do change, and it's been awhile since I've seen anything too horrible from Cleve.

 

[NewDArt]

Well to be clear, we are not talking about a single example of posting something on a another site. We are talking about him running a website with the sole purpose of spreading his ideas. That gives you a pretty good idea of what someone is about.

I'm the sort of person who thinks it's completely normal to share your ideas and to want others to agree with them.

Now, if he intends to do harm - I can't support that. But he has the right to earn a living no matter what he says on a website.

 

[Toff]

But no one has said he should not be able to sell his game.

What some of us are saying is that we will not be purchasing it.

I personally think he is going to make a lot of money from it as interest seems high, just not any from me.

 

[NewDArt]

But no one has said he should not be able to sell his game.

What some of us are saying is that we will not be purchasing it.

I personally think he is going to make a lot of money from it as interest seems high, just not any from me.

I'm not telling anyone to buy the game or to support it in any way

I'm simply saying why I wouldn't, personally, have a problem supporting it.

Some of you have clearly stated that you won't be buying it for "moral" reasons - and I'm just giving you my impression of the man.

Feel very free to not agree

 

[Roq]

And to be fair as well, people do change, and it's been awhile since I've seen anything too horrible from Cleve.

Yes. Any regression would likely be a disaster from a marketing perspective. I imagine he's probably worked that out for himself. And, if not, likely his son Cooper (see Grimdarkly blog) who helps out with testing and seems like a regular sort of guy would have put him in the picture. If we are all judged by our worst moments in the past, in perpetuity, then that would be an awful thing and make redemption impossible. I suppose also that how quickly one might forgive Ripper's hot dog vendor, might be influenced somewhat by how hungry one was (to end on a slightly cynical note).

 

[Aerth]

This guy is up there with Derek Smart with his claims ..