Skyrim - v1.2 Update

[kalniel]

So is there a comprehensive, easy to diagnose list of purely quest bugs Bethsoft can pass to the testers? So far I've only seen them buried in massive lists together with vague hints of problems and feature requests that aren't bugs.

 

[DeepO]

So is there a comprehensive, easy to diagnose list of purely quest bugs Bethsoft can pass to the testers? So far I've only seen them buried in massive lists together with vague hints of problems and feature requests that aren't bugs.

Are you perhaps implying that costumers should absolutely provide such a list if they want the game to be fixed?
There´s a hardware & software subforum on Bethboards which Beth employees should monitor 24 hours a day and create such a list themselves.
Paying costumers are not beta testers .

That said, I was able to fix most quest bugs that occurred in my game myself and for those I couldn´t pinpoint uespwiki or elderscrollswikia provided a solution, so these two sites, more specifically their Skyrim - quests subsections, might be quite resourceful in this regard.
Also, checking the above mentioned subforum revealed that incidentally there is actually a pretty comprehensive list maintained here:
http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1297205-unofficial-buglist/

 

[joxer]

Lemme add that it's not a finished unofficial list - the Dorian glitch (affects/stops two quests) is not on the list (yet).

 

[kalniel]

Also, checking the above mentioned subforum revealed that incidentally there is actually a pretty comprehensive list maintained here:
http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1297205-unofficial-buglist/

At the moment that list does more harm that good as it's full of vague reports and requests for features, not just bug reports. Some of us are hopefully going to get around to sifting it later.

I'm not saying customers have to provide such lists, just that if they're taking the time to moan about the bugs they might as well take the time to provide a useful report which will actually get something done about it. Unless they are just moaning because they like to moan.. oops, yes, sorry - forgot this was the internet.

 

[DeepO]

At the moment that list does more harm that good as it's full of vague reports and requests for features, not just bug reports. Some of us are hopefully going to get around to sifting it later.

More harm than good? How?
Most of the stuff on that list seem like legitimate bugs to me.
As for the stuff which may actually not be bugs, well, distinguishing between bugs and features is not always straightforward from an end-user perspective, so reporting such cases when in doubt is still better than not reporting them at all.
Why would "some of us" have to sift it anyway? That´s Bethesda´s work.

I'm not saying customers have to provide such lists, just that if they're taking the time to moan about the bugs they might as well take the time to provide a useful report which will actually get something done about it.

Again, sifting such feedback is Bethesda´s work, I´m sure it´s not all just useless moaning (which, however, is still legitimate form of feedback).

 

[kalniel]

Because developers have feelings too

Seriously, they see a list that supposedly contains bug reports and it has lots of things like 'There's no option to disable HDR' and they're not going to take it seriously - it'd take too much time for too little benefit and eventually it becomes like crying wolf - they won't take player reports of bugs seriously because most player reported bugs aren't helpful or even bugs. Compare that to a compiled list of just bugs, especially when there's decent information and information on reproduceability and they're much more likely to be able to spend the time fixing bugs that are fixable and repeatable.

Moaning is valid feedback in the right part of the forums. Not in the section for reporting and getting technical issues fixed though, and certainly not calling the moaning a bug report.

 

[DeepO]

Because developers have feelings too

They are paid to not have them in cases like this .

they won't take player reports of bugs seriously because most player reported bugs aren't helpful or even bugs.

I disagree.

First, they better take these reports seriously, it´s part of their job and customers are not professional bug reporters. Have they provided "A Guide to Report Bugs Helpfully" somewhere, anyway? All I see is one sticky investigating crashes and that´s it.

Second, that list is pretty damn useful considering it´s made voluntarily and gratis. Sifting it should not be a problem for anyone intimately familiar with the game´s ins and outs.

Third, if anyone is actually useless in this case, it´s Bethesda.
There´s pretty much zero dev response on that forum. No acknowledgements, no clarifications, no temporary workarounds.

There's no option to disable HDR

That´s quite the kind of stuff where from an end-user perspective it may not be clear whether it´s a bug/oversight or a feature.
What else is there to report anyway? There´s no option to disable HDR, period.
And I´m pretty sure the mention on the list is not a case of a single person reporting it, reporting it/complaining about it is likely a bit more frequent than that.

 

[Thrasher]

Damn, I should have disabled auto updates. Looks like 1.2 snuck in. Let's see if the disable works for future updates...

 

[crpgnut]

I'd rather see them focus on getting the Creation kit out. The modders will fix the game much faster than Bethesda, so the sooner the kit gets released, the better. Skyrim is an amazing game, but it can and will be better with the modders onboard.

 

[Thaurin]

I agree with kalniel. I'm probably biased because I work as a developer myself, but thankfully not on huge and complex projects such as Skyrim, but most user reports are close to useless. "This does not work" is not useful information. Such reports are sent back to the user, because the usual tongue-in-cheek answer to this is, "well, it works on my workstation." There need to be details describing the situations and actions under which the bug occurs, and with a big product like this, hopefully detailed technical information. Without being able to reproduce a bug, it is next to impossible to fix it.

Users are such assholes.

 

[Thrasher]

Users are usually clueless about the dev process, and need to be coached on how to provide bug reports. A web form with required fields helps a lot. A freeform forum is guaranteed to generate a lot of noise and a lot of work for someone to filter. It amazes me that game devs after all these years still rely on forum posts for bug reports? How lazy and out of touch can you get?

 

[Ragnaris]

I went ahead and accepted the update. Switching the favorites option from Q to F seems to work just fine now (you bring up the menu with the F key, and Q adds items to the inventory). The menu screen will still tell you to hit the F key to add to favorites; just ignore that.

And to clarify, the Esc key now exits out of menus (finally)!

 

[Thaurin]

Users are usually clueless about the dev process, and need to be coached on how to provide bug reports. A web form with required fields helps a lot. A freeform forum is guaranteed to generate a lot of noise and a lot of work for someone to filter. It amazes me that game devs after all these years still rely on forum posts for bug reports? How lazy and out of touch can you get?

Yes, or I would think that a bug reporter from within the game would be even better. If users would allow these non-identifiable information to be sent to Bethesda, they'd be much better to track where in the code things go to hell and why. But a web form could be helpful; I just suspect publishers might not like it because it creates expectations. "Well, hey, I can report bugs, so I expect you idiot developers to FIX MY DAMN BUG you hear!?" So when does support end?

 

[Thrasher]

Yeah, publishers don't want user's to expect that they will support games... The devs usually want to support the users.

 

[crpgnut]

Just curious if a ton of the quest bugs could be fixed by a global command along the lines of "Radiant Story cannot use quest dungeons until all other quests are complete". Is that even possible?

 

[joxer]

Just curious if a ton of the quest bugs could be fixed by a global command along the lines of "Radiant Story cannot use quest dungeons until all other quests are complete". Is that even possible?

Yes, it's possible by setting a flag with how many nonrepeatable quests are happening on each dungeon that decreases by 1 per nonrepeatable quest solved there. Say it like "Radiant Story cannot use this dungeon until all other nonrepeatable quests in the dungeon are complete - in fact till dungeon's flag finally reaches the value of zero".

But there is no point to do that, instead when receiving a quest for a "boss" already killed or for an item already looted, the engine should just respawn killed NPC or the missing item and that's it. It would apply not only on fresh started game but would also solve stopped quests in old saves.

 

[BillSeurer]

I agree with kalniel. I'm probably biased because I work as a developer myself, but thankfully not on huge and complex projects such as Skyrim, but most user reports are close to useless. "This does not work" is not useful information. Such reports are sent back to the user, because the usual tongue-in-cheek answer to this is, "well, it works on my workstation." There need to be details describing the situations and actions under which the bug occurs, and with a big product like this, hopefully detailed technical information. Without being able to reproduce a bug, it is next to impossible to fix it.

This is my life at work. Sample:

user: "The new thing is broke and it worked before!"
me: "Did you make any changes to your stuff?"
user: "No!"

About 90% of the time after hours of work I find out that they did indeed make changes and the changes are bad. Or their stuff never worked in the first place. Sigh.

 

[Thaurin]

On a side note, a new beta driver is out for GeForce users (version 290.36), which adds ambient occlusion for Skyrim. Head to this page (also make sure you select "Beta and Legacy Drivers" on the left side). For help turning on ambient occlusion, look here.

By the way, thanks for that. I installed it tonight. The game looks even better now! I love the soft shadows in corners, etc. It really does make a pretty subtle, but big difference.

About 90% of the time after hours of work I find out that they did indeed make changes and the changes are bad. Or their stuff never worked in the first place. Sigh.

Sorry, man. Yeah, half the time you're figuring out what the user saw go wrong in the first place. "It broke!" really does say exactly nothing. Luckily there's sometimes something useful in the logs.

 

[crpgnut]

Wow, my computer is made of metal. There aren't any logs anywhere!

 

[CountChocula]

I went ahead and accepted the update. Switching the favorites option from Q to F seems to work just fine now (you bring up the menu with the F key, and Q adds items to the inventory). The menu screen will still tell you to hit the F key to add to favorites; just ignore that.

And to clarify, the Esc key now exits out of menus (finally)!

Did they fix it so you are now able to hotkey dual wield melee weapons for your left hand?