Wasteland 3 - Officially Announced

It's an option available for those who wish to "risk" their money just as high-risk stocks exist that I can purchase today if I have a high tolerance for risk vs. reward over my standard 5.2% annual dividend due to stocks and mutual funds.

Honestly I look at the way most people manage risk and I think the world is insane.
 
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ElderGnome said:
On the topic of why some might not be into funding games or pre-ordering:
http://www.slashgear.com/no-mans-sk...y-we-should-stop-pre-ordering-games-15451789/
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This is not very good example regarding KS projects. For more reasons.

- NMS was NOT KS project. There was no risk that the project wont be made if you dont support it. So nothing forced ppl to pre-order it! That is big difference from KS.
- Devs of NMS are not established studio like Inxile. Far from it.
- Devs of NMS didnt release any similar game prior to NMS that would prove there is enough content or quality. Inxile released WL2 and Torment in EA.
- I have never believed in NMS. I didnt see any significant sign of QUALITY. Quantity of planets and nice Disneyland to walk around and mine doesnt mean quality. Many fans are just too susceptible to hype and have poor judgement.
- I didnt remember any KS campaign that was so overhyped and pushed for a long time by big media (especially IGN) like NMS. Some campaigns in the past like PoE or Torment had pretty good media coverage… but not like NMS. And it was in the past, not in 2016.

So if NMS proves something…

- Many fans are unable to see past hype
- Some media, especially big ones, have the same poor judgement as fans. Their level of experience or professionalism is sometimes (not always) a joke. Fans shouldnt believe them so much.
- Fans should be very cautious towards games that show only very basic gameplay in videos… with promises of "much more". Especially if pretty unknown devs do them and present them as "revolutionary".
 
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ElderGnome said:
Why take the risk when you can wait for others to take the risk and then buy a complete, finished product at a later time? I give my charity to homeless LGBT youth organizations, personally. Not software developers.
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That's great. I've given charity to all sorts of causes. Software developers, artists and people who create things from apps to games and everything in between are also worthy of support, especially those like Larian, Obsidian, Inxile and many others. If you think otherwise than a game to you is something that isn't worth much. I'd disagree since games have brought millions of people all around the world a lot of joy (and myself, speaking personally. RPGs like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy were *extremely* important to me growing up.)

As for "why take the risk", I already explained it. It's a risk, sure. But I look at it as trying to support something you love and want to see succeed in the face of odds that are usually not in their favor. Without Kickstarter and fan support, the new era of old-school influenced RPGs probably wouldn't have happened nearly to the extent that it is happening now. That is why some of these projects get multi-hundred dollar donations (and higher) from a single person, even from some people here on this site.
 
There is a difference, though, between charity and supporting a proifit-making venture. In think Eldergnome has a valid point in questioning the idea of "fundraising" for a commercial game, when our disposable income could perhaps be better used.
 
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Ripper said:
There is a difference, though, between charity and supporting a proifit-making venture. In think Eldergnome has a valid point in questioning the idea of "fundraising" for a commercial game, when our disposable income could perhaps be better used.
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I don't really think these type of companies have the amount of "disposable income" that they can throw at any project they like. I don't remember the exact story from the Pillars of Eternity documentary but I'm pretty sure a game like that was not really feasible for Obsidian without Kickstarter backers. Divinity: OS also stated that the money for Kickstarter went a long way to improving their game and allowing them to be able to do more than they could have without it. Not to mention the residual effect these campaigns had on the industry as a whole (you're now seeing more old-school styled RPGs attempting to be made, and these Kickstarters showed people that doing it this way is actually possible, there is a market for RPGs, etc.)

In the end, whether they're making a profit or not, they deserve support, IMO.

I mean, I can understand that sort of thing if you're talking about EA or something. They have a lot of money. But when you're raising a large amount of your funds from Kickstarter backers, even if the money will be used for a higher level of polish than previously would have been available, etc., I don't think they have that level of deep pockets to do anything they want without the active support of fans and backers.
 
No, if I understand Eldergnome correctly, I think he's questioning the idea of us, as backers, pledging sometimes significant amounts of our disposable income to KS games. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with that, but I think he has a reasonable point in suggesting that perhaps we should consider whether we risk too much money on game projects, when there are perhaps more important genuinely charitable causes to consider.

In the end, that's a personal choice, and I don't want to moralise, but I think it's a fair question to raise.
 
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There are a million great causes one can give to. That's a personal decision. I personally give based on what I am feeling at the given time.

At the same time, someone creating art and art itself is also important to me. Very important.

This kind of thing reminds me of the argument in school budget debates in the US. The first thing to be cut from the budget are the arts, music, etc.

In a perfect world where one has a large amount of money they could build a homeless shelter as well as give some money to help incredible art be made.
 
Ripper said:
These larger studios are using it in a different way, which I see more as a preorder scheme, getting people involved and generating buzz, and so on. I actually think that's OK, even if they could fund development in the traditional way. In a Larian interview, they said they were divided on whether they should use Kickstarter again for D:OS 2. If they were divided on the question, then clearly they had the option of funding the project themselves. If a studio in that position takes the KS route, fine, but I have no interest in handing over more than the asking price in that scenario. In that case, I certainly don't believe that throwing money at them is going to result in a better game.
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For businesses it can be more complicated than that. Many companies that are considering starting up costly, higher risk projects are more likely to proceed when they have a way to reduce the risk. One way to do that is to find a risk-sharing partner -- in this case the partner is us. Without that extra security of a funding pool, companies are more likely to stick to safer undertakings... or else they go under. What we (hopefully) get out of it are games that may otherwise never appear. Not necessarily better games though.
 
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rjshae said:
For businesses it can be more complicated than that. Many companies that are considering starting up costly, higher risk projects are more likely to proceed when they have a way to reduce the risk. One way to do that is to find a risk-sharing partner -- in this case the partner is us. Without that extra security of a funding pool, companies are more likely to stick to safer undertakings… or else they go under. What we (hopefully) get out of it are games that may otherwise never appear. Not necessarily better games though.
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I agree - that's what I was driving at in post #40

My point is that I'm prepared to support a campaign from a successful company on that basis, but I see much less of a case for backing beyond the asking price, as compared to when we're fully enabling a penniless indie project.
 
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Fluent said:
That's great. I've given charity to all sorts of causes. Software developers, artists and people who create things from apps to games and everything in between are also worthy of support, especially those like Larian, Obsidian, Inxile and many others.
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True. The difference is that homeless youth usually have less resources to live than software developers do. It's a matter of where you want to put your resources. Personally, I think skilled software developers will do well pretty much no matter what charity they get. Your opinion may vary.
 
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I look at it as supporting this type of product existing in the marketplace. If it fails in the crowdfunding stage its essentially a vote against that style of RPG being produced. Which I have no problem with if the product & company looks shady but InXile are not a shady company.

InXile is part of an ecosystem that produces and supports traditional style RPGs. Obsidian and InXile collaborate regularly as well as share some personnel. You may not agree with every micro decision they make but thinking big picture they are a good thing for RPG lovers.

For instance I was disappointed with Obsidian's first attempt at crowdfunding but out of that we got an RPG engine which allowed more money to be spent developing content for InXile's Torment game. InXile has also spent money improving this engine and creating a healthy ecosystem around RPG development (Kicking it Forward, Selling Game Assets, Supporting Community Asset Production etc)

The conversation editor from Obsidian will also be used in Wasteland 3 and the Wasteland 2 engine will obviously be improved and iterated upon. All in all continued support will lead to better quality RPGs going forward for the whole ecosystem. Its not just about supporting Wasteland 3 for me.
 
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There definitely are more far-reaching factors like that, for sure. The simple act of showing that you are interested in a product they are offering to make goes a long way, for example.
 
I don't think there is a real problem with a regular pledge like $25 up to... hmmm... what... $150 or so(?) in crowdfunding but e.g. the many thousands of $$$ some people have spent on (mere concepts of) Star Citizen space ships really is kind of obscene in my opinion.

A quick personal story: I accompanied a family friend to Jerusalem earlier this year where they have this hospice for people to spend the last days of their lives (a place for all religions... Muslims, Jews and Christians alike). The place is run by an order of French sisters/nurses who are -honestly- superhuman.
The Israeli government wanted to shut down the place because of some compliance issues which required rebuilding but the hospital did not have the funds for renovations.
It took an *enormous* amount of effort to raise enough capital (a low US$ millions sum total... less than many KS projects are asking for) to keep the place up and running and to preserve this very important cross-religious facility for dying patients in Jerusalem!

And then you have a game like Star Citizen where they show off a fancy trailer and make $2 million in less than a weekend. It just feels completely wrong when compared to the difficulties that some veritable charities have to keep up their community work which actually matters as opposed to owning a space ship in a video game...
 
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That's freedom for ya. Give people the choice of what to spend their money on and they spend it on space ships in video games. :p
 
ElderGnome said:
It's the definition of "taking a risk" because you are literally paying for a product before you have any idea what the end result will be; topping that off with a large number of Kickstarter projects that burned their supporters badly. I think you'd be foolish to not be skeptical.
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Maybe because they have a track record? It isn't like this is some company/develope we've never heard of before.
 
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Ripper said:
There is a difference, though, between charity and supporting a proifit-making venture. In think Eldergnome has a valid point in questioning the idea of "fundraising" for a commercial game, when our disposable income could perhaps be better used.
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I don't know to me it smacks of "holier than thou" thinking on Eldergnomes part. Hypocritical even, unless Eldergnome spends all of his/her disposable income on charity.

For instance, maybe Eldergnome shouldn't game at all since any money spent on it would be better spent on charity. Why stop there he/she shouldn't go to the movies,go out to eat, shop for anything other than bare necessities, etc. as that money would also be better off donated.
 
sakichop said:
For instance, maybe Eldergnome shouldn't game at all since any money spent on it would be better spent on charity. Why stop there he/she shouldn't go to the movies,go out to eat, shop for anything other than bare necessities, etc. as that money would also be better off donated.
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I don't follow. He said disposable income.
 
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