Interesting cannabis case in the UK

[Ubereil]

I'm afraid not, it's just something I saw (or heard, can't quite remember) a while ago that stuck. Here's an article on the subject. Problem is that it's in Swedish... But in short, 30 percent of all accidents in Sweden is caused by tiredness/lack of sleep (driving while tired is punishable btw). It's a highly questionable study though (web questionarie made by an insurance company), so it's nothing to consider as more than ancedotal knowledge. It says nothing about what's considered an accident, for instance.

Übereil

 

[skavenhorde]

You guys are still talking about weed right? Nation of junkies, burden on society??? You guys do realize that while alcohol is addictive, weed is not. For example you don't physically have any symptoms if you stop, with alcohol it's nasty. Eyes go yellow, shakes, all kinds of bad stuff at least that's what I saw when my dad stopped drinking.

How exactly would someone who smoked weed be a burden on society? If we stopped talking about weed and started about meth, heroin, or cocain or the other big time drugs then those comments would make sense. But weed? When is the last time you heard of someone robbing/killing for a bag of weed

Edit: Have you been watching Reefer Madness again? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness

 

[dteowner]

I believe we've expanded the original topic to include a wider range of drugs. Not sure a drug has to be clinically addictive to produce junkies and burnouts, though.

 

[skavenhorde]

Ok, if you guys expanded then it makes sense.

LMAO, god you love that term junky and now burnout. You have been watching Reefer madness.

 

[fatBastard()]

You guys are still talking about weed right? Nation of junkies, burden on society??? You guys do realize that while alcohol is addictive, weed is not. For example you don't physically have any symptoms if you stop, with alcohol it's nasty. Eyes go yellow, shakes, all kinds of bad stuff at least that's what I saw when my dad stopped drinking.

How exactly would someone who smoked weed be a burden on society? If we stopped talking about weed and started about meth, heroin, or cocain or the other big time drugs then those comments would make sense. But weed? When is the last time you heard of someone robbing/killing for a bag of weed

What makes you say that weed isn't addictive? I don't know about what the withdrawal symptoms are for going cold hashish turkey, but I've known/known of far more people who can't get through the day without a bong than I've known/known of alcoholics.

Another thing is that most of the hardcore junkies here in Denmark didn't start out going straight for shooting shit into their veins. Most of them started out with pot and then escalated to the stronger stuff. If there is no addiction element in weed/pot/hashish why would so many feel the need to "step up", so to speak?

 

[Benedict]

I don't know that I really have to "understand" the finer points of the scene to identify the potential hazards to me, do I? I don't agree with the choice, so I suppose a certain level of "sitting in judgment" is undeniable, but I'm not sure that automatically equates to snobbery, either.

You don't really have to know black people particularly well to identify that one of them could mug you, but some basic understanding helps a lot with having a proportionate reaction to it

Indeed, "the public" are retarded, so why would you not be concerned with letting those same retards dull their already feeble mental acuity before they leave the house?

My major concern from the public relates to aggressive behaviour on their part, and in my experience cannabis, psychedelics & MDMA analogues really don't tend to bring out aggressive behaviour, quite the opposite in fact.

I won't make many friends with my stance on drinking to excess either, so I suppose I can at least plead consistent application.

You can indeed

It's not really some boon that I'm graciously handing out--I haven't got my dictatorship established yet. It's a freedom that you don't have today that you want tomorrow, so someone has to give it to you. That's strictly a mechanical transaction. And I've said several times that you can do all the "quiet self enjoyment" you want. My stance is that it would be foolish to change the rules and then react to impending mayhem when a proactive position is so easy to establish. I suppose there's an underlying philosophical difference there--while you seem to favor giving a mile and trying to take some back if it's too much, I favor giving an inch, evaluate, earn another inch, evaluate, and so forth.

Oh I agree in the current situation any transition should be managed carefully. I just think that the underlying question is best framed in terms of negative rights rather than positive rights.

 

[Benedict]

Another thing is that most of the hardcore junkies here in Denmark didn't start out going straight for shooting shit into their veins. Most of them started out with pot and then escalated to the stronger stuff. If there is no addiction element in weed/pot/hashish why would so many feel the need to "step up", so to speak?

I've never bought into the "gateway drug" argument. People with a prediliction to experiment with things will experiment anyway, the fact that weed is the first thing they try doesn't mean that weed causes them to go on to do other things.

To some degree, the very fact that it's illegal most likely causes any gateway tendencies there are - weed is generally considered harmless so otherwise law abiding people seek out contacts for it & establish a precedent for breaking the law. Then once they move in those kinds of circle, have those connections and have already taken the step towards criminal activity it's a lot easier to go on and try other things

 

[Benedict]

You guys are still talking about weed right?

How exactly would someone who smoked weed be a burden on society? If we stopped talking about weed and started about meth, heroin, or cocain or the other big time drugs then those comments would make sense.

For my part, I'm talking about cannabis, MDMA / MDA / other analogues, the 2c's, most LSD analogues, the TMA's, mescaline . . . ketamine as well I guess, always found it utterly grim myself but it's harmless enough if you like that kind of thing.

The recreational things anyway. I'd exclude cocaine & crack, heroin, crystal meth . . . possibly speed as well, although that is easy enough to use recreationally (and again can't stand it myself so I'm probably biased), more potential for real paranoid psychosis with overuse thouh, GHB (harmless to others but such stupidly dangerous dose), GBL, DMT, and PCP

 

[Ubereil]

I've never bought into the "gateway drug" argument.

I did. Until I did some actual research and found that it's been repeatedly proved to be wrong.

The recreational things anyway. I'd exclude cocaine & crack, heroin, crystal meth . . . possibly speed as well, although that is easy enough to use recreationally (and again can't stand it myself so I'm probably biased).

Speed relates to crystal meth the way cocaine relates to crack, only more so IIRC. I'm not sure why you'd forbit cocaine before speed, since my own research has given me the impression that it's the other way around (IE speed is more addicting and more crippling).

Übereil

 

[Benedict]

I did. Until I did some actual research and found that it's been repeatedly proved to be wrong.

Speed relates to crystal meth the way cocaine relates to crack, only more so IIRC. I'm not sure why you'd forbit cocaine before speed, since my own research has given me the impression that it's the other way around (IE speed is more addicting and more crippling).

Übereil

Nice to know that it's actually been proven wrong, I suspected it was but it's always nice to know.

As for cocaine vs speed . . . with the people I've known, speed has tended to only ever be something they do while out at the weekend & likely to be up all night, whereas cocaine seems to more insidious, and has a way of sneaking into evening / daytime use for a lot of people.

With speed, if you're using it all the time at least you know you've got a problem, with coke there's a lot of people who clearly have a problem from an outside perspective but think they're only doing the odd line here or there.

 

[magerette]

Here's an aspect of the debate that may appeal to fiscal conservatives:
California Tax Board Says Legalizing Pot could Raise 1.4 Billion

And while you're at it, tax those sugary soft drinks.

 

[Benedict]

Here's an aspect of the debate that may appeal to fiscal conservatives:
California Tax Board Says Legalizing Pot could Raise 1.4 Billion

And while you're at it, tax those sugary soft drinks.

All sounds good to me. I'd be interested to see how that $1.4bn is counted, IMO the revenue is probably higher than projected - add in reduced enforcement costs, reduced prison costs, increased tourism, tax on income for people working in the new industry etc.

As for the sugar issue, I'd like to see automatic taxes on fructose & trans fats. There is no need for any foods to have those chemicals in them, and they're the major contributors to obesity which aren't already taxed IMO.

 

[pibbur]

...
As for the sugar issue, I'd like to see automatic taxes on fructose & trans fats. There is no need for any foods to have those chemicals in them, and they're the major contributors to obesity which aren't already taxed IMO.

Eh... fructose is a completely natural substance. Fruit, berries, root vegetbales all contain it, mostly bound to glucose in the disaccaride sucrose. Which is split into glucose and fructose in the intestines. Fructose-phosphates is also produced during the breakdown of glucose in cells.

OTOH, adding it as a sweetening substance, claiming that it's better than glucose is another issue. And trans fats are bad, of course.

 

[pibbur]

Speaking of cars, at least in Sweden the biggest reason for traffick accidents is tiredness, not DUI. Who the hell never drives when tired? Anyone who sees driving when tired as bad/stupid?

Übereil

I second dtowners comments. When it comes to serious accidents in Norway (oh, not again), DUI is as far as I know number one.

And for the record, driving while tired is bad, stupid, and illegal as well. Driving when your reaction or judgement capacity is weakened, whether it is from alcolhol, drugs, disease or tiredness is illegal in Norway at least. It would surprise me if it was much different elsewhere.

 

[Rithrandil]

That's why I take the trains! Nothing bad ever happens on those!

 

[pibbur]

That's why I take the trains! Nothing bad ever happens on those!

At least when the driver is sober.


Says Pibbur who has recently been on another interrail trip around Europe, this time with my wife. Our highest rated experience: That has to be the trip by cogwheeled driven train to Jungfraujoch in Switzerland. 3450 meters above sea level!

 

[Ubereil]

And for the record, driving while tired is bad, stupid, and illegal as well. Driving when your reaction or judgement capacity is weakened, whether it is from alcolhol, drugs, disease or tiredness is illegal in Norway at least. It would surprise me if it was much different elsewhere.

Like I said (at least I think so), it's illegal in Sweden too. I doubt it's common knowledge though. Everybody here knows you're not supposed to drive while drunk/high under any circumstances. I doubt pepole have the same attitude to tiredness and cars.

Übereil

 

[Rithrandil]

I think it's illegal here, but I think the definition of "tired" means literally "falling asleep at the wheel". I don't think it means a general "wow, i'm really tired" type of thing?

 

[pibbur]

Like I said (at least I think so), it's illegal in Sweden too. I doubt it's common knowledge though. Everybody here knows you're not supposed to drive while drunk/high under any circumstances. I doubt pepole have the same attitude to tiredness and cars.

Übereil

Ahh. The article you referred to did make that point. And I agree with you - the consequences of "tired-drivng" is underestimated. To be honest, while I would never drive after drinking, I have driven on a couple of occasions when I really should not, because of tiredness. Which proves your point. And again teaches me not to throw stones while sitting in a glass house.

 

[dteowner]

Says Pibbur who has recently been on another interrail trip around Europe, this time with my wife. Our highest rated experience: That has to be the trip by cogwheeled driven train to Jungfraujoch in Switzerland. 3450 meters above sea level!

That was incredibly cool. It's probably been close to 25 years now, but I still remember starting at the bottom to ~90degF (it was their hottest summer in decades) and emerging in a complete white-out at the top.